This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.
Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.
We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:
-
Shaming.
-
Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.
-
Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.
-
Recruiting for a cause.
-
Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.
In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:
-
Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.
-
Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.
-
Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.
-
Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.
On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.
Jump in the discussion.
No email address required.
Notes -
I think a little bit of the MLK discussion stems from a desire to use something like the legal "fruit of the poisoned tree" idea, since many of the bad things we know about him were, though in many (not all) cases true, were also the result of a racist and politically-motivated smear campaign by Hoover's FBI. I'm a little sympathetic. The other angle, of course, is that hero worship never went away, it just changed targets for a little bit.
The balance of how much as a society we "allow" hero worship is still a major point of debate. Personally, I feel we've swung too far on the hate and criticize side of things, to the point where some of my friends are saying things like we shouldn't teach patriotism too much in schools because it could be dangerous or is dishonest or something. I think that since it's generally harder to build up than it is to tear down, maybe we should lean a little bit towards letting hero worship alone. Or even, in the case of public schooling, both deliberately start with positive indoctrination, and then deliberately add some critical nuance a little later. Neither of those two sequential steps are optional, it doesn't work without both. For adults where it might be "too late", the question is more like what's worse, cynicism or idolatry? I actually don't know. I think we could use some passionately wrong people in today's society more than we need cynical nothings.
In this case, given how little the general public knows about the suffrage movement, I think it's probably completely and totally fine to go all-in on a production even if it lacks context or is exclusionary or whatever it is. The lower the knowledge, the more tolerance for simplistic narratives, that's kind of just how we learn, for better or worse.
IMO heroes are not quite the issue. The Left has heroes, they are just continually written into and out of the political story. Their heroes come and go like musical productions. Obama was a hero, now he is not, and AOC is a hero for those who “subscribe” to her but one day she won’t be. What the Left doesn’t have is any permanent hero, definitely not any old white ones from the white tradition. I mean… Marx? I don’t know. The parasocial relationship that young left Americans have with Hasanabi is pretty indicative of “hero worship” — watching for hours, imitating, buying merch, as an example.
My apolitical opinion on hero worship is that it’s an essential biological feature of humans that will never go away, because it’s shared social imitation. Ideally we should appreciate the specific virtues of specific heroes and not care about about the rest, and possess a large repertoire of heroes to pull from. For a culture, it’s optimal to have a number of heroes as points of reference in conversation and as stories for the young and as “self-checkups” for our own conduct — that’s kind of what the medieval virtues were all about.
Hmm, that's really interesting. So you think having a common set of hero cultural touchstones is nice, and that we should attempt to deliberately cultivate a set of heroes with some very well-exemplified virtues? Does that mean, for example, that you'd like to see MLK there, but only if he were accompanied by a good and (diverse?) set of other people in a larger pantheon, rather than getting special and rare privilege?
Absolutely + absolutely; the third question is bit complicated for me — if he did demonstrate a virtue closest to perfection (there’s no one better at universally important skill x) and if I subscribed to the idea of a “general American” pantheon then yes. IMO this is the best use of our instinct to like heroes. Flaws in heroes can then help us to remember the inevitable flaws of all humans (our own Achilles’ Heel). If I could extend the ideal further for no reason, the “special and rare” virtue of the pantheon is social humility, the great untold heroic quality behind every civilization. People love this quality, eg the internet loved when the owner of Arizona Iced Tea talked about purposefully keeping the price a dollar. Now maybe the owner lacks the virtue of prudence but that’s another digression.
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link