site banner

Culture War Roundup for the week of June 10, 2024

This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.

Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.

We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:

  • Shaming.

  • Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.

  • Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.

  • Recruiting for a cause.

  • Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.

In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:

  • Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.

  • Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.

  • Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.

  • Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.

On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.

7
Jump in the discussion.

No email address required.

This is why a statistics background is helpful. The core idea behind creating an IQ score is this: Raw test scores are forcefully molded into something that looks like a bell curve. That's IQ generation. That's the analogy here of "slapping a number on it". To be clear, anyone can take any dataset ever and make it look like a Bell curve by following this same methodology.

Careful! The thing being measured is by no means required to have a normal distribution itself! Height is actually a bad example here, because we know that due to whatever mechanisms go into a person's adult height, that human population heights are actually approximately normal (I say approximately because technically the normal has an infinite domain, and in practice we never see humans beyond a certain min and max height, but the core part of the distribution is without a doubt very normal; tails beyond a certain number of standard deviations are not as often considered, and are generally not here either for our purposes). In our height example, the difference in both a raw height of 1 cm is the same as a "normal" height of 1 cm. However, in IQ, if you score 1 point different in the raw test data, this could translate to a .5 IQ or a 2 IQ difference depending on where your particular score was forced into a normal distribution, i.e. how far up or down you are, and vice-versa. As I said, it's not symmetric.

Choosing height as your example is actually perfect, then, because it demonstrates that you indeed do not understand IQ on a fundamental level.

So IQ is necessarily ordinal in the sense that the mechanism is ranking and stacking up test-takers, relative to some benchmark. But they never are interval (implying equal-measures) in the sense that neither the core, raw test scores nor IQ are necessarily going to fairly represent what we actually want it to be: intelligence. A misunderstanding betrayed in everything upthread. It gets worse, too, when you consider that most IQ test designers have deliberately messed with the test design to make the test results fit their nice bell curve easier. You can see how this leads to some circular logic and reasoning. This is a MATH ISSUE. You cannot hand-wave it away!

For more, please see for example a technical discussion here, with an excerpt:

It may sound weird to define IQ so that it fits an arbitrary distribution, but that's because IQ is not what most people think it is. It's not a measurement of intelligence, it's just an indication of how someone's intelligence ranks among a group:

The I.Q. is essentially a rank; there are no true "units" of intellectual ability.

[Mussen, Paul Henry (1973). Psychology: An Introduction. Lexington (MA): Heath. p. 363. ISBN 978-0-669-61382-7.]

In the jargon of psychological measurement theory, IQ is an ordinal scale, where we are simply rank-ordering people. (...) It is not even appropriate to claim that the 10-point difference between IQ scores of 110 and 100 is the same as the 10-point difference between IQs of 160 and 150.

[Mackintosh, N. J. (1998). IQ and Human Intelligence. Oxford: Oxford University Press. pp. 30–31. ISBN 978-0-19-852367-3.]

When we come to quantities like IQ or g, as we are presently able to measure them, we shall see later that we have an even lower level of measurement—an ordinal level. This means that the numbers we assign to individuals can only be used to rank them—the number tells us where the individual comes in the rank order and nothing else.

That's a lot of words but I think I may not have been sufficiently clear when making my point because this reply doesn't get at the core of my objection, which doesn't have anything to do with the distribution of the score. I'm aware that height doesn't follow the same distribution curves as IQ, but the point of using height was to make the concept of a threshold or minimum requirement more obvious.

AFAIK as IQ is deliberately intended to be normalized, the gap is exactly the same 85 to 100 as 100 to 115, and if you think that those two aren't the same, you are also inherently saying that IQ is the wrong tool for the job.

The point being made by your interlocutor is not that the 15 points of IQ between 100 and 115 matter more than the 15 between 85 and 100, but that it can be harder to tell the difference externally. To wit:

A fifteen point gap at the higher end of the distribution isn't likely to be noticeable in everyday casual interaction, but at the lower end it can be the difference between someone who can at least tell you their own name and a total potato.

A single casual conversation can give you enough information to determine whether or not someone meets a certain low threshold for IQ, in much the same way that a sign in front of a rollercoaster with a single black line at the height threshold can tell you if someone meets the minimum requirement or not. The fact that the single threshold of the sign gives you a bit of information about the height of people who compare themselves to it but is unable to give you more information about the distribution of heights among people who pass does not mean that a centimetre is measured differently above or below the threshold.

I guess we're in pretty deep, but the original framing was this: a user said any intelligence differences were minor and also hard to tell, another user posts a study claiming basically that we could actually tell, and the OG user said yes that's still a minor difference, I can't tell 100 vs 115. Third user chimes in and says ok, 85 to 100 is the actual difference which implies in context that this 15 point gap is not minor and/or is obvious in casual conversation. At that point I respond about how 115 to 100 != 100 to 85 and that IQ is a stupid measure, which spawned a few subthreads.

Perhaps I conflated a few users or responded to the wrong argument, in retrospect (at that juncture), which maybe contributed to some unwieldy downthread organization. I apologize if my digression the last two replies wasn't strictly relevant, but it does bear mentioning with respect to my overall point. The whole conversation, I was trying to point out, is a stupid one. IQ has poisoned the debate. People want IQ to represent intelligence but it doesn't do so in a very rigorous way, and asymmetry is one of those ways. There are numerous methodological problems as well as fundamental interpretability problems. In a strict sense, sure, we were originally only comparing 100 to 85 and trying to consider it in context. That's kind of fine. The original wikipedia article (about the adoption study) does mention grappling with some but not all of these problems, and only methodologically. And actually, if you look carefully at the article, the parents were selected precisely because of having an IQ of 115 or higher. Maybe it's not a perfect point, but I want to point out that these misconceptions clearly pop up in many places including study design! And this study design did, in fact, have a number of significant issues, despite on its face being a perfect poster child experiment, for example as discussed here.

Inasmuch as we're more narrowly talking about casual conversation, sure, maybe the "test" of "can casual conversation detect someone 85 IQ or below" is perfectly valid and usable as a test (i.e. detecting if someone is sitting somewhere within the binned bottom 16ish percent of IQ scores, on that particular test), though maybe I've misconstructed the test: Is it instead "can you detect the difference between a 100 and 85 IQ" or "can you detect an 80-90 IQ from a 110-120 IQ person in casual conversation" or "can you identify someone's IQ within 15 points in casual conversation, provided they are not over 100" or and many, many other variations... Some might sound similar but from a math perspective might have drastically different actual implications, and even more problems crop up the second we try to equate specific IQ test scores as intelligence directly.