site banner
PaperclipPerfector  5mo ago (text post)   26564 thread views

Culture War Roundup for the week of June 3, 2024

This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.

Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.

We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:

  • Shaming.

  • Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.

  • Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.

  • Recruiting for a cause.

  • Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.

In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:

  • Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.

  • Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.

  • Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.

  • Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.

On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.

8
Top Bottom Old Controversial Comments
Jump in the discussion.

No email address required.

I'm against executive orders/overreach

The government gave out 167 billion dollars in free money entirely based on executive fiat.

Joe Biden tweeted this:

https://x.com/JoeBiden/status/1795969437595500905

The Supreme Court tried to block me from relieving student debt. But they didn’t stop me.

I’ve relieved student debt for over 5 million Americans. I’m going to keep going.

But it's not just the Supreme Court he is defying. The English common law system is based on the legislative branch controlling the purse. Joe Biden is overriding both of the other branches of government to reward a small subset of the American public. This is the definition of executive overreach.

The government gave out 167 billion dollars in free money entirely based on executive fiat.

The Public Service Loan Forgiveness program was authorized by congress in 2007.

It seems that this is a small sliver of the forgiven loans.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Public_Service_Loan_Forgiveness

OP's press release announced $7.7 billion of new forgiveness, $5.2 billion of which was PLSF.

I doubt PLSF represents 67% of the cumulative amount of forgiveness, but it doesn't seem to me like a "small sliver" based on the only evidence cited here.

OP says $167 billion have been cumulatively forgiven. My 2nd google result suggests that $53 billion had been forgiven based on the PLSF program by January 2024. So at worst 30% of the forgiveness, which is not a "small sliver".

https://americorps.gov/blogs/2024-01-12/five-things-know-about-public-service-loan-forgiveness

So only 120 billion of unconstitutional spending?

But I said I wasn't going to get into the weeds on this and I regret doing so. The fact remains that nearly $167 billion of government money was spent over the counterfactual of a Donald Trump presidency. In my opinion, this money was wasted in the worst way, giving large sums to people who are often quite privileged, rewarding them for their bad decisions. It was also a naked political attempt to win votes.

Future vote-buying attempts should focus on people who need it more and contribute more to society. Fortunately, we have lots of these people. Let's start with the working poor. Especially working poor people with children.

Perhaps 120, but maybe less. Those other programs might be constitutional as well. You assumed the full 167 wasn't, and look where that got you. Maybe we should look at the specific programs and the justifications behind their implementation by the executive rather than just assume whatever provides us with righteous anger.

I guess that would take too much time.

Edit: I think the original loan forgiveness program was a stupid, regressive waste. But your effort to draft is quite offputting. Doesn't feel like an honest sales pitch.

What is this place?

This website is a place for people who want to move past shady thinking and test their ideas in a court of people who don't all share the same biases. Our goal is to optimize for light, not heat; this is a group effort, and all commentators are asked to do their part.

The weekly Culture War threads host the most controversial topics and are the most visible aspect of The Motte. However, many other topics are appropriate here. We encourage people to post anything related to science, politics, or philosophy; if in doubt, post!

Check out The Vault for an archive of old quality posts. You are encouraged to crosspost these elsewhere.


Why are you called The Motte?

A motte is a stone keep on a raised earthwork common in early medieval fortifications. More pertinently, it's an element in a rhetorical move called a "Motte-and-Bailey", originally identified by philosopher Nicholas Shackel. It describes the tendency in discourse for people to move from a controversial but high value claim to a defensible but less exciting one upon any resistance to the former. He likens this to the medieval fortification, where a desirable land (the bailey) is abandoned when in danger for the more easily defended motte. In Shackel's words, "The Motte represents the defensible but undesired propositions to which one retreats when hard pressed."

On The Motte, always attempt to remain inside your defensible territory, even if you are not being pressed.


New post guidelines

If you're posting something that isn't related to the culture war, we encourage you to post a thread for it. A submission statement is highly appreciated, but isn't necessary for text posts or links to largely-text posts such as blogs or news articles; if we're unsure of the value of your post, we might remove it until you add a submission statement. A submission statement is required for non-text sources (videos, podcasts, images).

Culture war posts go in the culture war thread; all links must either include a submission statement or significant commentary. Bare links without those will be removed.

If in doubt, please post it!


Rules


Recommended Posts And Communities

Recommended Realtime Chats