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PaperclipPerfector  6mo ago (text post)   4388 thread views

Small-Scale Question Sunday for May 26, 2024

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A big difference between Americans and Europeans is how we view Brits. If your image of Brits is upper class posh people you are American.

If you associate Brits with obese football hooligans causing a scene at a McDonalds at 3 am you are European.

I couldn't put it better. There is a ton of videos and memes mocking the dullness, meaninglessness, and poor quality of life of British lower classes.

On the other hand, Brits seem to me to have many of the smartest white people, with exemplars like Paul Dirac, Stephen Hawking, Freeman Dyson, Roger Penrose or Timothy Gowers, so the differences are indeed significant.

Calling those video's is generous. I must ask, how does one find such things or become aware of youtube slideshows mocking lower class brits? I stumble across weird shit all the time and I am often asked how I found it when I share it to a group chat. I'm honestly just curious how this discovery happened.

Two of the videos were riding the "Deano" wave as re-popularised by semi-obscure esoteric RW anons on twitter (e.g. https://x.com/kunley_drukpa/status/1572994810499432448 )- which is sort of a British archetypal "working class lad done well" but with the modern consumer culture modernity dialled up to 11. The other two both fall more into the "Gammon" genre, popularised during Brexit and also Euro 2020. They often feature Tango (this chap: https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-11486337/England-superfan-Tango-Man-apologises-going-topless-Qatar.html) or other Brexit/Nationalistic discussion. These things come and go in waves, TiKTok seems to play a large part, but they're always getting shared by slightly elderly relatives a couple of years after they did the rounds the first time. It mostly seems to be middle class white Brits laughing at their lower class brethren, rather than inter ethnic or anything, and Americans sometimes get involved as well.

The poking fun between classes genre has always existed, but the underlying "Gammon" concept can be traced back at least as far as Enfield's Self-Righteous brothers sketches: https://youtube.com/watch?v=CvbXwwob8Kw.

The British lower classes were thoroughly pwned, as the kids would say. They don't even aspire to rise in the social classes. It is looked down upon to try. I wonder if this is a very long lasting heritage from what the Normans did to the Anglo-Saxons after conquering England. The latter were deeply subjugated, starved, massacred; put in their place. You can see the legacy in the way the language is organized. The words that describe things that are served to a nobler person, or are found in the house, or take place within the house, are French in origin. The words that describe the outside locations, the fields and the work and the serving, etc, are Anglo-Saxon in origin.

England lost a lot of people to emigration in the 17th, 18th, and 19th centuries. Maybe the ambitious ones mostly left.

The legacy of the Norman conquest is so significant it is in many ways more similar to what happened in Latin America than other European countries. The upper classes are phenotypically distinct; in the northeast the working class sometimes has a quasi-nordic phenotype, otherwise they are shorter, more squat, have rounder faces.

I know what you're talking about, but I'm confused about Norman vs Nordic phenotypes. Aren't the Normans also Nordic? I'm also not clear what it means when I see very thin faces with fine features, which showed up a lot in old royal portraits.

The Normans are Nordic, unlike the vast majority of the working class. But in the Northeast (Newcastle is an example) one does see working class people with more of that phenotype, taller, blonder, lighter eyes etc.

I would assume the majority of the working class are mostly Anglo-Saxon genetically, which is probably going to be very similar to having Nordic DNA. They're both originally northwestern Germanic peoples. OTOH I could be under-estimating the Celtic component among non-upper class Brits.

It appears as though the modern English are less than 50% Anglo-Saxon, having been diluted through sustained contact and population exchange with France, presumably as a result of the Norman conquest and through migrant populations such as the Huguenots.

The Normans and the Vikings left remarkably little genetic impact on the island. There were only around 8000 Norman conquerors, and outside of Cornwall and some parts of the North, there is very little visible genetic distance in the English population. Where phenotypic differences do exist I suspect it is largely due to intermarriage and self selection (with limited franco-german exchange into the upper classes). A caste of people who only marry themselves, wealthy semi-foreigners, or those of the lower orders who successfully rise to the top will tend to look somewhat different. Nutrition etc. also played a large part. The "white urban working class" of most UK cities, has also had huge amounts of Irish influx. Manchester, Liverpool, Glasgow and even London must have upwards of a 25% Irish component in their traditional working class populations.

No, it's through contact with the Britons, not the French.

Europeans still have the popular conception of upper class Brits (see stuff like Dinner for One in DACH), they just know it’s only one kind of British person.

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