site banner
PaperclipPerfector  6mo ago (text post)   25610 thread views

Culture War Roundup for the week of May 20, 2024

This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.

Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.

We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:

  • Shaming.

  • Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.

  • Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.

  • Recruiting for a cause.

  • Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.

In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:

  • Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.

  • Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.

  • Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.

  • Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.

On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.

8
Top Bottom Old Controversial Comments
Jump in the discussion.

No email address required.

And if you go back far enough, every human outside Africa is an immigrant from Africa.

I am not an expert on the field but it seems that Out of Africa is becoming more controversial over the alternative that humanity evolved in different continents. There is also the idea of multiple waves of immigration out of Africa. As for the multi-regional model, in addition to evolving to different environments, part of this evolution has been also breeding with different hominid species. We simply keep finding hominids and ancient humans in regions outside of Africa that at minimum challenges the certainty of Out of Africa model.

The findings support a multiregional hypothesis, which argues that before our species left Africa for Europe, there was continuous gene flow between at least two different populations.

https://www.sciencealert.com/the-first-humans-out-of-africa-werent-quite-who-we-thought

https://www.quora.com/Was-the-out-of-Africa-theory-debunked

https://abcnews.go.com/Technology/story?id=99257&page=1 https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/is-the-out-of-africa-theory-out/ https://www.livescience.com/ancient-human-vertebra-found-israel https://www.independent.co.uk/news/science/evolution-theory-out-of-africa-dali-skull-china-homo-erectus-sapiens-latest-a8064306.html

I mean, Out of Africa in the narrow sense of "100% of our ancestry comes from a single migration from Africa that completely wiped out all other human populations without interbreeding" has been debunked, but it has been replaced with "~95% of our ancestry comes from a single migration from Africa and the rest from interbreeding with other human populations that migrated from Africa at earlier times" which still fits the simpler statement "we all came from Africa."

As far as I know, the story recostructed from fossils and genetics is like this:

  1. Genus Homo evolves in East or South Africa from earlier bipedal apes (e.g. Australopithecus) between 2.5 and 2 million years ago.
  2. First out-of-Africa migration by Homo ergaster/erectus, which uses knapped stone tools and fire but still has a noticeably smaller brain than ours, about 1.5 million years ago. Populations migrate into tropical Asia ("Peking Man", "Java Man", the "Hobbits" of Flores). All or near all the ancestry of modern humans comes from the populations that stayed in Africa.
  3. Second out-of-Africa migration by Homo heidelbergensis, which makes wooden spears and builds early shelters, 800-500,000 years ago. This wave gets much farther north, and eventually spawns the Neanderthals of Europe and the Near East, and the Denisovans of north-central Asia, but still never leaves greater Afro-Eurasia. The much more primitive ergaster descendants are completely replaced, surviving for longer only on islands.
  4. Our own species, Homo sapiens, appears somewhere in Africa between 300 and 200,000 years ago. After 100,000 years ago or so it starts developing modern tech like spear throwers and stone arrowtips as well as the earliest abstract and figurative art. The ancestors of San, Hadza, and Pygmy peoples split off from other modern human populations. Meanwhile, Neanderthals and Denisovans develop into their late form and exchange genes.
  5. Third out-of-Africa migration by Homo sapiens, with an abortive migration through Egypt into the Near East 100,000 years ago and then a crossing from Ethiopia into Yemen 70,000 years ago. The wave first follows the tropical coast of Asia, absorbing some Neanderthal and Denisovan DNA along the way, into Australia. A "ghost species" of which no fossils are known leaves behind some DNA in Subsaharan populations. After 50-40,000 years ago the Eurasian populations start moving northward, crossing further with Neanderthals and developing technology suited for cold environments, and eventually crossing into the Americas.

I suppose in the end the answer seems to be kind of an Hegelian synthesis of multiregionalism and out-of-Africa, but I'd say the latter wins on balance.

This is still ‘out of Africa’ in the 19th century sense, it’s just not in the narrow “all modern humans evolved fully in Africa then left” way that some late 20th century anthropologists suggested.

What is this place?

This website is a place for people who want to move past shady thinking and test their ideas in a court of people who don't all share the same biases. Our goal is to optimize for light, not heat; this is a group effort, and all commentators are asked to do their part.

The weekly Culture War threads host the most controversial topics and are the most visible aspect of The Motte. However, many other topics are appropriate here. We encourage people to post anything related to science, politics, or philosophy; if in doubt, post!

Check out The Vault for an archive of old quality posts. You are encouraged to crosspost these elsewhere.


Why are you called The Motte?

A motte is a stone keep on a raised earthwork common in early medieval fortifications. More pertinently, it's an element in a rhetorical move called a "Motte-and-Bailey", originally identified by philosopher Nicholas Shackel. It describes the tendency in discourse for people to move from a controversial but high value claim to a defensible but less exciting one upon any resistance to the former. He likens this to the medieval fortification, where a desirable land (the bailey) is abandoned when in danger for the more easily defended motte. In Shackel's words, "The Motte represents the defensible but undesired propositions to which one retreats when hard pressed."

On The Motte, always attempt to remain inside your defensible territory, even if you are not being pressed.


New post guidelines

If you're posting something that isn't related to the culture war, we encourage you to post a thread for it. A submission statement is highly appreciated, but isn't necessary for text posts or links to largely-text posts such as blogs or news articles; if we're unsure of the value of your post, we might remove it until you add a submission statement. A submission statement is required for non-text sources (videos, podcasts, images).

Culture war posts go in the culture war thread; all links must either include a submission statement or significant commentary. Bare links without those will be removed.

If in doubt, please post it!


Rules


Recommended Posts And Communities

Recommended Realtime Chats