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Unsolicited teaching time!!!!!!
I know your comment is meant somewhat facetiously but it's important to establish good PRN habits early, especially as you move to a higher resource community.
Some pearls.
Haldol/Ativan/Benadryl (B-52! If you've never heard the term) works well and is popular for a damn good reason. It's fine as a default.
Other PRNs exist however and you should be familiar with them and try and think about when to use them. Droperidol is big in the ED in the U.S. Thorazine is more popular as a pediatric PRN because it's thought to be more sedating.
If the patient is on something that seems to be working (like say Zyprexa) you can consider using more of that for breakthrough agitation. Do not mix IM Zyprexa with benzos however.
If you ever work in a consult setting or otherwise with medically ill patients you'll want to have a few tricks. QT related concerns are big in the U.S. even if they are questionably real so you have a lot of elderly dementia/delirium patients who need clever agitation management - low dose depakote can work for this.
Know what's happening with the patient. Patient like the above will generate requests from idiotic physicians for benzodiazepines recs. Obviously that makes delirium worse. I believe all doctors who deal with agitated patients (read: basically all doctors) need a full length version of this rant for that reason. Less common problem (especially outside your field) are pure "behavioral" patients. If the agitation is all volitional antipsychotics aren't going to do shit.....choose more sedating regimens (but be aware of the risks of such).
Unrelated question to check reading comprehension (this is a joke). Do they use hospital prescribed alcohol to manage withdrawal in India? It's so stupidly effective and simple and I don't know why we don't do it more anymore.
Go assess the patient (skip if the bandwidth isn't there, admittedly). Nursing and ancillary staff are seldom reliable narrators for if a patient needs meds. Bonus points if you can learn which staff and teams are reliable for this. Sometimes you can save everyone trouble by throwing a pissed off person a sandwich. Also be aware of the risks of sedating someone you need to interview or examine later, can easily cause downstream workflow problems especially if it's a hospital setting and you are pulling in consultants.
I'm not that lazy so I asked GPT-4:
A senior doctor likely provided this advice based on several important considerations regarding the safety and effectiveness of treating acute agitation in patients with psychosis:
Effectiveness of Current Medication:
Drug Interactions:
Safety Concerns with IM Administration:
Clinical Guidelines and Best Practices:
Minimizing Polypharmacy:
In summary, the senior doctor's advice is grounded in clinical safety, evidence-based practice, and the principle of minimizing harm while effectively managing acute agitation. By using more of a medication that is already working, like Zyprexa (olanzapine), and avoiding the combination of IM olanzapine with benzodiazepines, the approach aims to optimize patient outcomes while reducing the risk of serious adverse effects.
I suppose that's the gist of it?
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It's a good thing I took my Ritalin and have a psych textbook open, or I'd have permabanned for the aggressive attack with education at a vulnerable juncture /s
Thank you, while you Americans have an abominable addiction to brand names, I can understand that those are principles that'll come in handy.
I can Google that, but you're in a teaching mood, so might I know why from the horse's mouth?
Never seen it happen, and I've been here longer than I'd like. It's the usual benzos to cover the acute withdrawal, and it matches up with NICE guidance to boot.
Good stuff. I'm taking notes, albeit with the cafeteria being the way it is in the NHS, I might be tempted to steal the sandwich. Certainly not paying for one out of pocket, do I look like I make US money haha. I do prefer practical and common sense interventions where possible, Scott's story about the lady with OCD and hairdryer stuck with me.
More from hanging out in /r/drugs to watch in sheer awe at the people who choose to abuse deliriants, in the case of Benadryl, but Haldol? That's good old haloperidol and I love it like me mum.
Excellent! Using the knowledge we just discussed, which PRNs would you administer to yourself for that aggression???
-Lowkey I use the generic vs. brand name basically based off what's easier/quicker to spell.
-B-52 is the medical slang for that PRN regimen, don't see people abusing it (if that's what you meant by that comment).
-Medical beer works great! We need to bring it back.
-In the U.S. we have sandwiches on deck for just this reason.
I see your other reply with chatbot Charlie but I'll ignore it because why more word when less word good.
On paper you have a risk of increased adversed events (most notably respiratory depression) when those two agents are mingled.
What ChatGPT won't tell you is that is likely not real and just a recommendation generated by an abundance of caution. Origin was probably adverse events in people with comorbid substance use, including alcohol.
Haloperidol 😌
Then again, maybe I have PTSD from exams, and therapy (CBT, if memory serves) is first line in the UK.
Ah, the innocence. While I'm more familiar with the bomber aircraft with that designation, you really need to visit /r/drugs, sort by top all time, and just see the RIDICULOUS things people do with or on benadryl. Who thought people could get addicted to a bad time?
Especially for us doctors. Sadly, the glory days of the NHS when doctors smoked cigars in their chambers and they had a bar in the doctor's mess were over before I was born.
Hmm.. A lack of evidence based practice? In medicine? Never imagined that was a thing.
I'd be rather surprised to see respiratory depression on that combination, unless they were the kind more fit for the ICU, but I'm just a baby doctor and I'm here to learn.
Oh yeah Benadryl use? Absolutely, with Haldol? That I haven't seen. You see a lot of Benadryl abuse in a correctional setting in the U.S. And really abuse of anything. Apparently Oxybutynin is popular in the women's prisons. And licking pesticides off the walls is popular whenever the prison successfully cracks down on drug imports. If it's at all anticholinergic life, uh finds a way.
Zyprexa is decently sedating. Benzos are sedating. That's probably it. You get a bad outcome and then it generates a black box warning or whatever and we get stuck with it (see: SSRIs increasing suicide risk).
While I usually like to complain about the lack of EBM in this case it's probably just defensive medicine. Be curious to see if they teach it in the U.K. which obviously has a different regulatory environment.
I expect it's somewhat less litigious than the US, though of course it still keeps people up at night.
I've read that the SSRI and increased suicide risk is a real phenomenon, when they start working enough to overcome the lethargy and apathy, which lets users finally find the energy to apply those lovely suicidal thoughts lurking in their heads. Not that I've seen that stop anyone prescribing them, there's nothing better for the majority. Maybe jump to ECT if the depression is severe enough/psychotic?
Check it out. Totally is a debate as to if it's real or not (although the FDA and mainstream thought leans on yes with qualification) HOWEVER, IIRC it's just for Peds (so the common apathy narrative is less applicable), it seems small, and it's just a risk for SI not completion.
Standard of care is still to counsel for everybody just in case.
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