TitaniumButterfly
No bio...
User ID: 2854
Not drop a cryptic reply like "I'm anti third-worldism." several times and never explain what that means.
Here he is with a related take though still not a coherent or contextually-appropriate one.
TitaniumButterfly
4hr ago
This feels close to the crux of my complaint. It seems that the truth has been overplayed for political purposes and the people who are supposed to be managing it show every sign of operating in bad faith.
TitaniumButterfly
4hr ago
Yeah that's probably the best description I've heard of the tattoo fiasco. Trump's take on it was outright embarrassing.
I still think the guy's probably up to no good, though.
TitaniumButterfly
4hr ago
Likewise. You'll note that I was happy to volunteer those links.
TitaniumButterfly
4hr ago
Thanks for a great reply. Regrettably I think it was caught in the spam filter or something because I didn't see it until like two days after you posted it, and also if others saw it I'm sure you'd have a lot more upvotes.
I'm about to move from the prep phase of dinner to the cooking phase, and you have so much here, so in short I'd just like to say
- Thanks again, sincerely
- You've substantially shifted my views in your direction
- Plenty of food for thought moving forward
- Basically I consider you to have fulfilled the request I was making for more perspective and info
I have to eat my words on this one, though my opinion is unchanged.
The last time I seriously looked into this was circa 2005. When I go looking now the results are incredibly one-sided. As such, my tone and attitude were inappropriate and I apologize.
Yet I clearly remember many, many accounts of Jews getting decent healthcare -- self-reported, mind, not according to the nazis. My expectation is that the truth has shifted outside of the overton window and sources which might paint nazis in a more nuanced light have been deprecated. Certainly this would be in keeping with google's general ethos re: filtering search results.
This will understandably not be very convincing to you, but integrity dictates that I owe you a response.
If you're feeling up to it, I'd still like a response too:
Are you disputing that inflating the numbers suits the Zionist agenda, or are you disputing that the institutions which would do so had many incentives to do so and few if any incentives not to?
And, if neither, what makes you think the numbers are sound?
There was a commenter here who said women lacked "accountability" because they want to be able to f*** without risking being pregnant for nine months.
That was me, and as we discussed at the time that's a horrendously inaccurate and uncharitable take on what I was saying.
This is entirely typical of you. In my opinion you don't belong here and I for one will be much happier when you inevitably wear out the mods' welcome.
(And no; I won't be litigating this or anything else with you again, nor should others.)
TitaniumButterfly
1d ago
This explains so much about a prior housemate of mine. Every single one of those things in spades. I'd tell the horror stories but am happy to find that, seven or so years later, I finally seem to be over it.
TitaniumButterfly
1d ago
I recall that this was indeed an embarrassment to the Roman elite when Spartacus repeatedly beat them and their troops. Ruined a lot of narratives as I understand it.
This is not by any means a fringe assertion — I'm unaware of any mainstream historian or institution which disputes the matter, and you can easily google it and learn from whatever source you find credible — and one person on a forum claiming that it's partisan and inflammatory does not make it so.
Though I'll add that this sort of treatment was much more typical of the early days. It makes sense. Healthy slaves are productive slaves. It all seems to have gone out the window once resources got thinner.
TitaniumButterfly
2d ago
Yeah I originally used numbers because I wanted later items to be able to refer to earlier items, but when I saw that it was broken I just reworded everything.
TitaniumButterfly
2d ago
Yes. One imagines meth was involved.
Since the claim about the Holocaust is that Jews were targeted for extermination, not just abused as slaves and "incidentally" dying.
Allow me to clarify. I think that most of the deaths in camps are due to malnutrition and disease. It's also demonstrably the case that Jews in camps often received high-quality medical treatment and had access to all sorts of pleasant recreational facilities, which certainly doesn't make things okay, but does cast some doubt on the narrative that the whole point was to kill them.
FWIW my guess is that had the Nazis won (and stayed winning) Jews would have been expelled to colonies as ~slaves, generally whittled down by social and economic oppression, and in the long run probably mostly exterminated one way or another, yes. For obvious reasons I'm not a fan of this outcome.
However -- a whole lot of deaths did happen outside the camps. Neighbor on neighbor violence, pogroms, groups of Jews (and other political prisoners) quietly gunned down in the woods when transporting them became inconvenient, etc.
the claim that many fewer Jews died than is accepted by mainstream historians and that these numbers are inflated to suit the Zionist agenda
Are you disputing that inflating the numbers suits the Zionist agenda, or are you disputing that the institutions which would do so had many incentives to do so and few if any incentives not to?
Feel free to walk away from the conversation at any time if this is stressful to you btw; I'm not hounding you, didn't initiate conversation with you, and am at this point responding because you're responding.
TitaniumButterfly
2d ago
I'll clarify again that I fully believe the holocaust happened and that death camps existed and that it would be crazy not to. I also think it would be crazy to not notice the incentives that were and are in place to inflate the numbers and distort the narrative as to how things went down exactly.
We're pretty much all contrarians here -- who among us can resist tugging at such threads? And if we feel afraid to because of a lifetime of conditioning against doing so in this one particular case, or fear of reprisal for daring to doubt, doesn't that make the skeptical case rather stronger?
Yeah when I wrote my original post it occurred to me that I was going to have to repeat myself ad infinitum about this, but, I'm not disputing that the holocaust happened or that millions died.
I just think it was likely mostly much more, uh, organic, if you will, than is typically portrayed, and that the numbers given have every hallmark of being substantially inflated. I'm also calling attention to what I see as the fact that all pertinent institutions involved were, at the time, and are still now, under immense pressure to spin things in only one direction, including the nazis. During the war so as to please their superiors; after the war so as to please their captors.
Maybe you're an HBD-denier but if not you must surely see how possible it is for such a 'vast conspiracy' to be not just possible but successful -- outside of extremely niche uncontrolled spaces like this one.
Death camps may be a waste of resources, but so is invading Russia.
People like to sneer about this but I don't think so. It was Stalin's plan to let the capitalist powers fight it out and then jump on the losing side. Hitler attacked because the USSR was only going to get stronger and was never going to stop being a threat, while if he won he would have the resources to hold off the US. It was a fatal gamble but arguably a necessary one.
There are many, many, many instances of Hitler making terrible strategic decisions; I don't think this is one of them.
you must have noticed how strong the overlap between people who hate Jews and people who deny the Holocaust is
Sure; I also notice that it's immaterial to the question, and easy to explain. C.f. HBD-denial again and the overlaps we see there. Actually I'd question your motivation in trying to make the point in the first place; it looks to me like dirty rhetoric.
TitaniumButterfly
2d ago
Yeah so I kind of was hoping that doing a post about being Jewish wouldn't immediately mean the replies would also include a bunch of "but Jews do rule the world" and "but the Holocaust probably is mostly fake"
I'm sympathetic to your OP and wasn't responding to it, which would obviously have been incredibly inappropriate. Nor did I, at any point, suggest that the holocaust is probably mostly fake. I'm disputing the narrative and I'm questioning details; not whether it happened.
More importantly, I'm asking someone who indicated his ability and willingness to correct others about their misconceptions on the matter to do that. Conversations ramify and often end up in very different places than they started. It's a forum.
We had a huge family tree and then there was no one on it anymore. Our story is not unique, that's basically every Holocaust survivor story.
Yeah. One side of my family was in the US before all that happened; the other side no longer exists.
Yes, I tried talking to not one but three sheltered leftist white women for exorbitant rates and in every case my takeaway was 'how can someone this detached from reality re: how humans work, have this degree?' (FWIW I've had much better success with priests, who seem to have a much more credible handle on the experience of being human and how to live in the world, shaped over millennia, untainted by the intellectual rot of the last half century. But I digress.)
Then I did ketamine (and mdma) and all I can say is that it saved my life. It reminded me of who I was before the soul-shattering trauma and showed me who I was called to be. Lost weight, started working out rigorously, dressed better, greatly expanded my business, met the woman of my dreams, and am generally living my best life. I'm not a regular drug user and usually don't even drink, but the work those things did on me has lasted for years now and shows no sign of diminishing.
Even so I wouldn't suggest others try 'drugs' without an extremely informed, experienced, and personally-committed guide. These things can be dangerous or even ruinous, but I was blessed enough to have two such people to help me through that crucible.
I hope this is a joke and that you're not looking for historical insight from a dissociative drug.
Well of course I didn't go looking for that! But yeah this part is difficult to explain and I was certainly being glib in how I described it. My belief that it happened comes from all the history I've read. My conviction that it happened comes from ketamine's unique(?) ability to synthesize many different understandings together into a comprehensible whole. It all fits and I could see that in a way I never had before.
My guess is that you will, for good reason, not believe me when I tell you this, but I'm not exactly a holocaust denier yet I still want to challenge you on the matter. JAQ etc. Sorry in advance for the broken formatting; idk how to fix it.
I haven't spent a huge amount of time researching these things, but I've read several books on the topic (including the ones they made us read in school), watched youtube videos from different perspectives, observed many acrimonious debates, etc., and my current assessment is as follows:
- The personal testimonies of neither nazis nor inmates can be trusted whatsoever.
1a. Nazis are on record admitting to all sorts of absurd and bizarre abuses which clearly never happened, including but not limited to whimsical electric execution floors, massive mobile body-grinding machines which are postulated to explain where all the bodies went, and even nuclear explosions deployed to vaporize corpse piles (same reason). We shouldn't be surprised that confessions under duress are less than reliable.
1b. Meanwhile inmates are on record making the most outrageous, fanciful accusations including straight up Tom & Jerry style hijinks, including but not limited to the nazis making prisoners push a shotgun into a hole in the wall that bends the barrel around backwards at them, then pull the trigger, such that the prisoner shoots himself. (If you don't know anything about guns let met assure you this is entirely impossible. This is bugs bunny-tier nonsense.) Many of the first-hand accounts of extermination camps I've read (it's late and I'm a bit tipsy and can't remember which) turn out to fall apart upon even cursory historical examination and even mainstream historians will, when cornered, acknowledge that they're, to put it lightly, embellished.
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If the holocaust were entirely a hoax (and I don't think it is) mainstream institutions are in a political situation where they have no incentive to entertain the possibility whatsoever and every incentive to double down wherever possible. The justification for this statement I'll leave as an exercise to the reader. We all know that if anyone even implies it might not have been quite as commonly portrayed everyone else absolutely flips the fuck out and actual arguments need not ever enter the picture.
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Pursuant to the previous item, every incentive I see pushes the official narrative toward inflating the horrors of the holocaust not just qualitatively but also quantitatively. It's a classic ratchet situation. Anyone is free to claim more victims (and more monstrously) than usual; no one is free to claim fewer victims (or less monstrously) than usual. The numbers we're given seem historically tenuous at best and given these dynamics were likely much smaller.
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It is certainly true that nazis didn't want jews around and tried to expel them, only nobody wanted to take them. Given the war, this subject population was put to work as slave labor in horrible conditions which, due to disease, malnutrition, and (yes) hateful abuse resulted in the deaths of hundreds of thousands or maybe even millions. These slaves were used to help the war effort and were considered expendable. Given that Germans themselves were often facing death by starvation near the end of the war, it is not at all surprising that their slaves were often left to starve first, or even executed as convenient.
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Here's the curveball: For all that, I'm A) Jewish and B) Once did a shitload of ketamine and... well, describing the experience probably won't make sense to anyone who isn't Jewish and who hasn't done that, but suffice it to say I'm entirely convinced that the holocaust did happen roughly as commonly described in the broadest strokes -- that does fit the Pattern of Reality and, uh, ancestral memory that I encountered -- but notwithstanding any of the above. An industrial state putting huge resources into mechanically killing a slave labor force while it's in the middle of an existential war for existence just doesn't add up. The targeted destruction of jews surely did happen, but sheer common sense indicates that the murders, rapes, and local pogroms happened relatively incidentally and organically, while malnutrition and disease did most of the work in the camps.
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Instead European Jewry was first encouraged to leave, then pushed toward other countries as refugees, then massively conscripted as a slave labor force with zero compassion or concern about their wellbeing, then basically liquidated as convenient when resources ran low so as to conserve resources for Germans and the war effort in general. Colossal-scale industrialized killing just doesn't fit into this model.
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As the war wrapped up, and afterward, it was obviously enormously politically beneficial for the winners to record history so as to make the losers look as bad as possible, and especially for Zionists to have something to point to in order to justify... whatever they want, really. Everything after that point follows naturally. The holocaust is huge business both politically and financially.
So -- I feel like I don't often get the chance to sincerely expose this perspective to anyone who A) has the background to correct me and B) is enough of a gentleman to do so without histrionics, but if I'm reading your post right you just volunteered yourself as both. So do let me know. I'm not even sure whether I technically qualify as a holocaust denier, which is a weird position to be in.
(But seriously, this autoformatting. Why is it designed around a use case where someone starts a numbered list with a number other than 1 but actually wants 1? When would that ever possibly happen? And what can one do to get around it?)
To'Wrathh
Goodness gracious, is that how that's spelled? I'd been thinking Turrath. Yikes. Now I'm afraid to ask about Toakar.
TitaniumButterfly
4d ago
I don't realistically have the time to get to it in the foreseeable future anyway but thanks.
TitaniumButterfly
4d ago
The series starts very strong but gets worse as it continues, not to mention that it eventually segues into something like superhero fiction. Last one I read was The Labyrinth Index and I will not be proceeding.
I'm actually surprised at how effectively Stross keeps his leftist ideology from ruining the books entirely. It does make it through sometimes but generally can be ignored. There's much handwringing in later books about how 'society' basically renders middle-aged women 'invisible' e.g. Sure I rolled my eyes but no big deal.
TitaniumButterfly
4d ago
Sounds more experimental than anything but you've piqued my curiosity.
TitaniumButterfly
4d ago
It's also helpful to remember that in the case of actual wartime production happening even the less-competitive producers will likely be going full-tilt.
TitaniumButterfly
4d ago
Well, I guess I also would prefer to not live next to a cartoon caricature of a neo-nazi.
I don't know what he thinks because I've never seen him try to articulate it instead of making snippy comments at people who are trying to understand. At this point I don't really care what he thinks and frankly I interpret any apparent effort on his part as likely to be a trolling operation.
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