traveller
1yr ago
Russia has reasons to perceive expansion as aggression
I reject this part.
Though it would be accurate to treat it as a threat on Russian imperialism and pre-empting USSR 2.0. That is exactly why Poland and other joined NATO and Ukraine wanted to join.
Russia is not entitled to having an imperial sphere of influence.
traveller
1yr ago
Though the same group proves that PoWs were treated awfully by Russia.
So apparently really bad treatment is happening, though without routine murder of surrendering Ukrainians. Always nice to be passing some standards.
traveller
1yr ago
Also, if you have reputation of treating PoW decently then enemy is more likely to surrender than make doomed last stands.
In addition war crimes are bad also to people doing them and people around and is making harder to have stable sane society after war if typical soldier in your army is a torturer and rapist and whoever else.
traveller
1yr ago
What was the window of opportunity for Ukraine to run away, in your view?
Directly after fall of communism and some time later. Plenty of stuff was stolen during that time in Poland but Ukraine went far further and economical growth was anaemic later.
The made some steps since 2014 but it was too late to avoid Russian invasion and may be also too late to avoid conquest by Russia.
traveller
1yr ago
No idea how far Crimea should be rolled back but accepting Russian invasion is one of options.
traveller
1yr ago
reports of Russians abusing or executing PoWs so far - especially after the chaos of the first few days - are very thin on the ground
Note that Ukraine allowed contact of independent organisation with PoW held by them, Russia failed to do so.
See also how people released by Russia looks like.
traveller
1yr ago
But i would support undoing things done by
whooops!
It was supposed to be "But i would support undoing things done by(...)"
entirely owe their existence to Hitler's legacy
That is blatantly false, for multiple reasons. Dropping "entirely" would help a bit but still would be untrue.
And I am not calling for rolling back anything communist adjacent - I would not support undoing electrification of many rural areas of Poland on basis "it happened under communism". And I am not going to kill myself because I was born during communist rule. Or deconstruct motorways where construction started under Hitler.
But i would support undoing things done by Third Reich and USSR regimes that were unwanted.
Do you still hold their independence to be legitimate?
Yes.
You also know that Poland signed a nonaggression pact with the Third Reich, and took part in the partition of Czechoslovakia, don't you?
Yes. BTW, Trans-Olza is nowadays in Czechia.
traveller
1yr ago
now give also statistics about how much space there was per person and how long you needed to wait for a home or flat
traveller
1yr ago
explicitly describe the "final solution" as the evacuation of the Jews to the East
Even if you interpret it in painfully positive way it still has explicitly (1) A majority of people will not survive this (2) The survivors will have to be "treated" as not to serve as a "gamete" for the reconstruction of European Judaism (3) Mixed children will, with some exceptions, be expelled, forced into "evacuation", or sterilised.
Calling it evacuation is extremely misleading and you know it. I bet that you would be really unhappy if you and your family would be "evacuated" in this way.
traveller
1yr ago
Applying to join NATO doesn't automatically mean membership.
Well, yes. As can be seen from case of Ukraine.
And Ukraine also demonstrates how it ends if you fail to run away from Russian bear quickly enough.
traveller
1yr ago
Polands economical miracle
this sounds a bit funny for Pole given that we are word-class at complaining and doomposting :)
traveller
1yr ago
Well, if it's so simple, why not have another crack at Leningrad? Why not send whole brigades, kit and all, to fight in Ukraine?
Most European countries are rich and cowardly and currently at low risk, to the first approximation. And Ukraine's limits are equipment, not soldiers anyway.
So sending equipment is relatively cheap, enough for Ukrainians and enough to harm Russian imperialism long term.
Europe will send F16 and 400 modern MBT before sending soldiers.
traveller
1yr ago
And I suspect that the best thing that homolobby can do for itself in Ukraine is to play on repeat Putin complaining about homolobby and satanist nazi jewish gay Ukrainians.
traveller
1yr ago
Those deals didn't specify that they had to implement mass immigration
And? Note that some fairly minor countries like Poland decided that they prefer to not get it and are not "more or less blockaded" by USA.
UK Brexited over immigration among over things and I do not remember it being "more or less blockaded" by USA.
and end up getting sanctioned by the EU
How that connects to "the US expanding right into Eastern Europe"? Unless you have overly rose image of USA competence and argues that EU is its puppet without any power.
after Russia pulled back
After Russia was kicked out of areas it occupied/controlled by force. Large part of that conquests was result of alliance with Third Reich and Hitler.
the US expanding right into Eastern Europe
They were invited by nearly everyone for obvious reasons.
traveller
1yr ago
Does the idea that disarmament, mutually agreed restraint and maintenance of norms are positive-sum not pop up in those discussions at all?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Budapest_Memorandum has indicated that it works poorly with Russia.
Personally, I would prefer Russia to be a normal country and give up imperial ambitions. Or like Germany switch to economical and bureaucratic meddling with some amount of culture warring, but with economy project that is overall beneficial and culture warring that is far less problematic than what say Third Reich was doing.
So I would prefer Russia to be peaceful with their army not murdering 100 000+ people across Ukraine.
But if they are invading countries with mine in the queue? Then well, I will celebrate Russian soldiers horribly dying, support funding lethal aid until project of rebuilding imperial Russia will go away. I funded about 4 suicide drones directly[1], my country already send 230+ tanks and I hope for more.
I am not going to deny that Russian soldiers are human or pretend that it is fine, but given alternatives I hope that Russian army will go back. In body bags if needed.
[1]And yes, I am fine with fact that I substantially contributed to some deaths of Russian soldiers. That was expected effected, though goal was not "murder as many Russians as possible" - goal is to get rid of Russian threat and get them to abandon Imperial Russia project. And I am willing to put substantial resources to block respawning USSR.
traveller
1yr ago
Therefore your narrow reliance on Soviet-provided data on the number of Jews in the Soviet Union post-war is putting far too much weight on an unreliable source.
Again: that is relying on reports from actual people living in Poland. Before Germans invaded Jews were everywhere, after they were not there. Unlike with say expulsion of Germans we have no records of this people arriving anywhere.
In the same way, Himmler will refer to a camp, like Sobibor, as a "Transit Camp"
Transit? Between what? Somehow people were ending in camps and disappearing there, never heard about again.
And even if we believe all that (and there is no good reason for that), then according to own plans they were expecting that they will be enslaved and most of them will quickly die.
Seriously, starving people to death in concentration camps is not better - in any way - than gas chambers. So even if this specific denial you peddle would be 100% accurate then it would not change much, except historians being even more suspicious.
And your outright "mass murder of Jews never happened" is just absurd. Are you also denying that Germans mass-murdered Gypsies? Poles?
And thanks to RococoBasilica, nice to have confirmation that you were lying or being misleading about "no documents".
traveller
1yr ago
If you have a suggestion that isn't "ban certain topics/arguments," let's hear it.
Isolate topic in some containment thread? (subvariant of topic ban)
traveller
1yr ago
And then imagine after an exchange debating the evidence for the claim, you ultimately force a "stalemate" by saying "if they weren't murdered, cremated, and buried right here then where did they go?"
I would be happy to discuss facts even with neonazis, as long are they reality adjacent.
If it turns out that someone is full-bore genocide denialists (or praises Mao or claims that Pol Pot was a good leader or that there was no internal paedophilia conspiracy of any kind in Catholic Church or that there is no biological difference between males and females) then I will find better way to procrastinate.
Are you also denying that Germans were rapidly antisemitic? Are you denying deportation to ghettos? Are you denying deportation to concentration camps? Are you also denying murder of millions via shooting and starvation? (also Poles, Gypsies, Ukrainians, Belarusians, Russians and so on, Jews were less than half of victims of Holocaust). Are you denying that people in concentration camps were horrifyingly mistreated?
Also, are you a neonazi dear SS? Is your username shortening to SS coincidence or deliberate?
The post-war demographic data entirely comes from Soviet authorities
Not entirely. There were some many Jewish Poles that to detect that they almost entirely disappeared does not require reliable statistics. Entire communities disappeared, to the point that it was noticeable even in Poland where around 16% of population was murdered.
You are again being misleading. Populations of Jews in Poland (before they were murdered by Germans) was readily noticeable, it is not like COVID/vaccines where you need to rely on statistics to establish effects.
And for some weird reason they basically disappeared and by pure coincidence that happened during time when Germans invaded. And Germans had rabid hate toward Jews, even greater then toward Poles/Ukrainians which were supposed to be subjugated and enslaved.
Even if Germans imprisoned Jews in concentrations camps and starved there them to death, and gas chambers were entirely fake then it does not strongly change anything at all. OK, it reduces my opinion about historians. But surely it will not improve my opinion about Nazis.
Or are you denying that Germans were rapidly antisemitic? Are you denying deportation to ghettos? Are you denying deportation to concentration camps? Are you also denying murder of millions via shooting and starvation? (also Poles, Gypsies, Ukrainians, Belarusians, Russians and so on, Jews were less than half of victims of Holocaust). Are you denying that people in concentration camps were horrifyingly mistreated?
It seems to me that starting proxy war against NATO is a poor way to avoid proxy wars against NATO.
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