roche
13hr ago
Thanks! Glad to hear you stayed safe. That quote seems to ring a bell, but I can't find the original post/thread now so the context is lost. I'll try to respond regardless.
See my conclusion was that enlightenment is functionally identical to insanity. You can not attain it until you let go of everything - including the ability to understand and be understood.
You may be interested in Schopenhauer's definition of insanity: The thread of memory is severed. In our scientific epoch, knowing the material and efficient causes of any phenomenon is considered absolute knowledge, in other words, "There are those who think they know the bird having seen the egg it crawled out of". So for the insane man who has lost access to this mode of knowledge, he must instead observe the phenomenon directly and consider its qualities per se for knowledge. For Schopenhauer, this was the only way to obtain true knowledge of anything, and there's a good chance Plato held a similar view; both lend to the shamanistic/mystic side of philosophy, and shamanism itself is nothing other than reading into the forms, which is why an insane person could do it.
Personally, I'm skeptical of it. You should look into P.G. Krishnamurti's view. It's fascinating, and it would be healthier than idolizing literal schizophrenia too, lol.
roche
2d ago
The primary lesson is that it all falls apart once you get to the edges, so we shouldn't dwell too long there. Hence most of our bright philosophers like Descartes, Locke, Hume, Rousseau, Leibniz doubling as scientists, historians, politicians, missionaries and giving the rag of philosophy a squeeze to extract whatever potential was in it. Any effort you'd like to invest in philosophy should be redirected toward psychology, IMO.
roche
2d ago
Oh sure. Deep sleep is insanely important and basically changes your life. Most of my post was a bit of contra-doomerism, which is probably good on this topic because anxiety plays a sinister part in the insomnia loop. Glad to hear you recovered.
roche
2d ago
Of course I have empathy. Trans-bashing has never entered my mind. It's more like, every trans person I've come across has some deep mental problems and not-being-a-woman isn't even foremost of them. They're neurotic. They're obsessed with porn. They hate their parents, and conservatives. They're pale and sickly. They cut their own hair and make awkward looking bangs. They only want to talk about themselves. You rarely come across a trans person that makes you think, "Huh, this is just a normal person that wants to be a girl". The rejoinder is: "Our fucked up society is the reason they turn out this way!" Which... yeah, sure. But if you agree society messed you up, isn't priority #1 then to repair the damage?
Actually, what bothers me about them is the odd double standard where they demand recognition from our society, yet refuse to play by any of its standards and so indulge in hypersexuality, self-harm, gross fetishes, disruptive behavior etc. which is what made the gays so hated in the past. If transexuals were otherwise healthy adults that acted like the opposite gender, almost no one would mind.
roche
2d ago
Embodying an emotion sounds like it could just be a result of attention directed towards an emotion, such that said emotion is the meditation object?
AFAIK the point is letting your guard down so that the emotion completely consumes you in a controlled environment. The idea is to "sublimate it" like therapy, but to such a degree that your attachment to this emotion in general burns away.
You may also know that the brain accepts something as true the first moment you see it, and only judge it afterwards, which is why some advertisement tries to overstimulate you as it delivers its message.
Yeah, this is true. This is why Indian rituals have long made sport of overwhelming the senses above all, through things like kirtan. I seem to remember some old anthropology quote about how naive and barbaric pagans are, because their idols and rituals are so loud and noisy that there simply can't be any deeper feeling behind it. But more than likely, the overstimulating nature of pagan rituals all across the world serves to overwhelm the senses, so that the brain is tossed on a sea of confusion for a brief time and is more open to processing the raw experience. You can replicate that now by listening to this. When the brain lacks confidence it's more open. Etc.
This is the brains model of the body, often called the spirit body by mystics, and it may be related to our sense of Proprioception. I don't know if you can accidentally mess up this sense, but it's possible.
I've definitely had the "thinking center" of my brain change places a few times before. Once a few weeks ago, during a particularly bad episode of insomnia, it was like a bunch of thread had fallen loose from the spool and took extra energy to reach my "thoughts". Another time was during meditation, where it did a very bizarre rotation down to my throat and rotated back up. Yet another was an incredibly neat phenomenon where I was meditating in a chair, and for a brief feeling it was like my perspective rose "up and over" my head, and I realized then our perception of reality is based on the tiny nook in our minds from which we see everything normally, and if you happen to see from anywhere else, everything will appear differently.
I hope these insights were useful! If you want, I will try to dig up the titles of some of the books I've read on this, though 40% of it is my own original ideas and guesses.
Mm, yeah, it's good. But I still have no great leads. There's no desperation for these weird Eastern practices to be true, or whatever -- it's more like "We have several millennia of records, they claim incredible things, some of them have already proven to be correct, but nobody is reading them". Personally it astounds me that the Indian discovery (and Chinese discovery for that matter) met with such little fanfare during the Enlightenment. It was by integrating the mystic traditions of Eastern high priests that the Greeks began their scientific golden age, and so to see the Eastern world met with either profound apathy, or religious fanaticism, is really strange. Because obviously when you tell someone about the Tao and it sounds dumb and impractical, the move isn't to say wow these Chinese sure were bad at philosophy, but to realize the very book is telling you words suck at conveying meaning, and virtually all intent behind its writing is lost, and to get at it you've got to dig and dig and dig and dig. And I would absolutely love to do it, but I'm on Japan now, and next comes India, and I'll be in a casket before I have time for China. But anyway... have you looked at the Tibetan practices or tantra at all? That's the most promising area IMO
roche
2d ago
I get you, but IMO this is a "High intelligence + High openness" result. There are some profoundly intelligent people like Schopenhauer who never second-guessed their axioms or sought out a higher authority or basis for them, and when questioned on what authority they're derived from, he and others always defer to Plato's forms or the "laws of nature" or whatever. And rather than infinite regress, they arrive at some bedrock idea like entelechy and say "Yep, this explains everything" and there is nothing before it. And to their defense is the Eleatic argument that something cannot come from nothing, and this is the most widely loved idea by philosophers because it spits in the face of infinite regress.
roche
2d ago
I don’t buy that meditation can reliably lead to “any emotion or experience”. I don’t think the evidence is weighty enough to support that idea. Certainly you can’t trust the old writings of an institution of monks who are interested in getting monks to meditate as much as possible.
Yeah, fair. This is more or less a supposition that meditation has the same mechanism as a psychedelic experience, but even if that's true, you can do virtually anything on something like LSD whereas meditation is limiting your experiences as much as humanly possible, so by the time you get to a profound state there's a small handful of consistent attainments we can get, and these become the jhana states, deep samadhi, etc.
This is a more realistic aim. Non-effortful meditation is probably beneficial for the Domain Mode Network, resulting in greater rest and general awareness. But if anything, I’d bet the benefits of meditation are precisely insofar as they don’t cause a preferable emotional state. If meditation is boring, unpleasant, but restful, then your “real life” will be more interesting, pleasant, and energetic. It’s like a nap.
You're making the opposite error of me, which is lowballing it while I'm aiming too high. We're not sure what these practices amount to at most, but they absolutely give us more than restful sleep and greater focus.
roche
2d ago
Good stuff. Will also add keeping your muscles relaxed before bed is quite important.
Good stuff, thanks for the links.
that you can re-program yourself, that you can live in constant bliss or reach a higher level of consciousness?
Hereabouts. The more perception-related stuff like reality shifting and kasina meditation is like playing with fire. I do recall hearing that the Tibetans practice some kind of "emotional alchemy", where one emotion is changed into another, and that this is one of the most dangerous meditations on earth as if it backfires you can go insane or become a psychopathic murderer and the likes, but maybe that's hearsay. There is though a staple of Vajrayana, where you "become" the pure embodiment of some emotion or idea for a time, like a "demon of hatred", but this is just embracing a current emotion and letting it all out, which is what we all do during therapy. Pretty simple.
Living in constant bliss (which should be possible given that these mechanisms don't rely on dopamine or other neurotransmitters, but occur in the processing of sensations) probably just requires a strong concentration, then to focus on a pleasant experience in your body, and keep the focus such that a feedback-loop occurs.
This is basically the process behind all serious meditative/psychedelic states, no? Some kind of feedback loop. The dhyanas are triggered by noticing some pleasant tingles in the hands, and with your brain in a very plastic and vulnerable state, the observation of these tingles magnifies the sensation, and on repeat observations the feeling builds, up until you reach immense pleasure. And this is qualitatively different from a high state of samadhi, which is typically based on a cool feeling of the breath, and so manifests more as a profound relaxation.
But a feedback loop like that simply doesn't happen while sober, and it is evidently not something you can condition through meditation (with our current knowledge). But there is a whole bunch of crap related to kundalini awakening that seems potentially promising, but feels like digging through your weird old relative's house where everything's dirty and smells weird. Mainly I just don't have any good leads. Perhaps you do though.
roche
2d ago
Euphoria is the experience of an unusual amount of pleasure, and an experience which provides euphoria will eventually provide “mere pleasantness” when repeated. And if repeated long enough it will provide “mere baseline”.
Back in the day, senior monks used to spend all day in the dhyana states to the point of neglecting to instruct the younger monks. AFAIK the pleasure of the jhanas does not dimish.
Let’s suppose you could self-administer euphoria on command. This would be similar to heroin addiction. What would be your incentive to fulfill the hours of necessary daily tasks to maintain health, if you could summon euphoria at will? Once you exit that state of euphoria you would feel abysmal because now your body has to utilize so much energy and effort to, like, get groceries while in a state of displeasure.
Obviously if we were just seeking to replicate heroin or MDMA the whole idea would be stupid. The point here is that drugs like heroin and MDMA operate within a certain paradigm, they work by throwing a giant monkey wrench in the face of your sobriety, and so the way to healthy unique experiences is not by fucking with your sobriety through a medley of strange chemicals, but by changing the nature of your sobriety through meditation and other practices, which is already done in a number of ways by monks and tantrikas.
I don’t think you are treating these eastern spiritual claims with enough skepticism. The idea that a human can experience an eternally preferable state (a bliss) without the experience of a negative emotional state to refer back to is illogical.
It's an incredible claim, and for now I don't believe it either. However, there are two facts which make me hesitate here:
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Meditative states can produce virtually any emotion or experience, with enough effort and time. Imagine it, and it will happen.
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Effects from meditative states can and often do carry into sober existence.
Now, the logical link between these two facts and "You can achieve a lasting state of bliss in sobriety" does not exist. But the logical link of "Meditation (and psychedelic experiences in general) leave lasting impacts on your sobriety, and we don't know how" does. The anecdotes are endless. So I'm not pursuing something ridiculous like a state of meditative bliss out the gate, but rather inquiring where the line is drawn, to see on paper the maximum benefit we can derive from these practices, and hopefully to find the origin of their negative aspects like psychosis and the Long Dark Night of the Soul. This is important because current meditation traditions have no interest in that. They're dogmatists as I've mentioned, and their approach is to wait until a disaster happens and only then clean up the mess. Personally, I'm not confident a lasting bliss-like state may be achieved, because the nature of lasting meditative effects tend to be more perceptive like floaters, fuzzy borders, and high-visual clarity as opposed to concrete feelings. And yet, those absolutely do happen -- particularly from 'metta'.
There’s some higher order part of ourself that finds this repulsive and actually demands the necessity of pain in order to adapt to biological, external, and social reality.
Do you think about all that stuff in the 5~ seconds after you orgasm? Personally, I bask in the waves of bliss. I think you ought to read up on some of the meditative stuff ITT to see just how far out these states can get.
roche
2d ago
A special kind of relativism, yeah. But...
If you think about anything long enough, you will find that there's no one true answer, no matter if the subject is morality, meaning, philosophy, or mathematics (incompleteness theorems).
Careful here. This train of logic contradicts relativism, because you're saying if anyone thinks long enough they'll arrive at the relativist position, whereas a true relativist knows this only applies to himself and the others "destined" for relativism, and it's wholly natural for Muslims and Christians to collide with the same ideas as you and bounce off into becoming even more fervent Muslims and Christians. For them there is no "choosing" in the process. It's simply the truth.
roche
2d ago
Hey guys, what's your experience with chronic sleep deprivation?
Like a huge fraction of the population, I don't get that healthy 8 hours of sleep on a consistent schedule every night, and consuming caffeine before bed certainly doesn't help. So a few weeks ago, I woke up after a 2 hour sleep with some incredible brain fog which was scary, but it soon went away. According to Matthew Walker, some effects are permanent. However, I happened across this Japanese gentleman the other day who had a stroke on a livestream. I'll quote part of his post below:
Due to trauma I still can't watch this video, but nowadays I'm on meds and doing well. After that stream, I went to the hospital and got a CT scan, and they said everything's fine, but afterwards I kept getting stuck on my words in weird ways (Like to be specific, I couldn't say "As always, thank you for your assistance" at work). So I went in for a second opinion at another hospital and got an MRI. Their diagnosis was a stroke. According to the doctor, the blood in my brain stopped moving by accident, yet began to move again immediately afterward, so there were ultimately no after-effects, and just by taking some meds I could return to my normal life.
Ultimately we spent 2 years doing tests, but could never determine the exact cause. However, I spent 10 years sleeping an average of 3 hours per night, so I can't help but imagine this is the cause.
And he still streams, too! Very energetic, quick-minded... not at all what you'd expect. Now, I write this because a man named Matt Walker comes up on the topic of sleep debt, and his stance is that long-term sleep debt cannot be recovered from. And I cannot help but feel this may be a form of health scaremongering. Obviously, don't treat your body and mind like shit, health is the #1 priority, you know the deal. But I'm increasingly skeptical of these health gurus online who seem to make a career from either promising you the world or scaring you into relying on their advice.
roche
3d ago
Until recently it was also natural that infant mortality rates were 30% to 50% during childbirth, and that a single cut from a rock may prove fatal. Natural too, then, is the fact that this mystical path really ends in no profound change, and this is owed not to the weakness of our methods, but the poor karma of most practitioners. So the Buddha is said to have stored countless lifetimes of accumulated good will, and that for any man to become awakened it is like digging through a mountain with a spoon. In the end it's all promises, and I've seen it too many times. Dig through the layer of promises and you hit the bottom.
I find profound benefits in this and was recommended to meditate even by my therapist in my psychiatrist's office.
Sure. Freedom from ADHD. Freedom from anxiety. These are all wonderful things. But it's not what was advertised.
roche
3d ago
This strain of analysis is limited, because one pillar of the Indian perspective we struggle to understand is the jewel analogy, the kaleidoscopic view of the capital-t Truth where it changes depending on where we stand, hence Kathenotheism, hence Syadvada. Hence Samsara as being an arrow that soars out of oblivion and lands in your rib. It doesn't matter where the arrow came from; it's a problem and it needs to go. Unfortunately, I don't see much in your quote. To me it seems like a rehashed and watered-down Schopenhauer's Will.
roche
4d ago
Sure, there are benefits to meditation both in the moment and long-term. But there's a massive discrepancy between what is being promised, and what is actually happening for long-term practitioners. People go in expecting something like Krishnamurti's natural state, where the qualitative nature of moment-to-moment experience and behavior is permanently changed, but all you really get is a mild feeling of equanimity and non-dualism -- though you can reach immensely powerful states during meditation and shortly after. There is an obvious mismatch between what manifests and the type of thing promised in the suttas. And yet, our meditation is entirely a reconstruction from the ancient texts; one that emphasizes vipassana while the ancients emphasized samadhi.
It is tragic that meditation is so closely tied to a religion, because this means effectively one side of the population will not take it seriously, while the other half embraces it like pure magic. And this extends to our scientists. Someone who's done his reading knows the almost cartoonish way our scientists flip on a dime when shown a few good proofs of eastern medicine. When the Greeks found their high arts among the Egyptian priests, they saw to separating the mystical from the material. It is a third position that is exceedingly hard to come by now.
roche
7d ago
Best to abandon all hopes of reading something interesting online in 2024. Put the onus on yourself to dig through old publications and research instead.
roche
8d ago
Sure, I agree. If you want ancient go to China.
But in defense of Japan, they view time differently. This is damn hard to explain if you're not really familiar with Asian cultures, but imagine a piece of taffy stretched out to infinity, and then suppose this taffy is infinitely divisible, and that you live on a random notch somewhere on this taffy, and that's how Japanese view time. There is a natural sense of eternity there, as if you're just a little ink blot on the letter of some word of a grand page in a grand book you know nothing about, and can never read or decipher. But you don't care, because things are safe and cozy and beautiful, and if there's anything you like it'll be around a long time. Driving to work, warm coffee, pleasant tunes. All of it will last.
AFAIK, caring about quantitative time is a Westerner thing. Even the ancient Greeks had a very different conception of it, where the past is like infinitely far away even for events that occurred 10 years ago, and you have dudes getting labeled demigods while their grandkids still walk around town.
roche
12d ago
Holding a thinking face expression for much of the day also creates wrinkles around the face. The greats have eye-areas marked out like world war trench formations
roche
15d ago
Keep in mind that religion is a social mechanism -- one of multiple nigh-invisible but indispensable mechanisms to keep us from clawing out one another's throats. In Japan's case what happened is not religion, but something functionally equivalent to one, which is that the entire country sort of melded into one enormous clan, and the operative faith here is that if one performs his duty in the clan to the nth degree he's going to get all the spoils of society, which is why Japanese elders make no bones about picking up trash or being a crossing guard, and why they're so reticent and polite. Japan is also by no means homogeneous, and that word is a phantasm unless you're talking about very old villages or uncontacted tribes.
and then they formed warm relations the formerly enemy distant genome.
Politeness is a social mechanism too
roche
15d ago
And what are tribal reasons? Differences in behavior. A symbiotic relation is made possibly only by very advanced social mechanisms, and when you consider the advancement of tribal peoples, you should take it to heart that failure to innovate in these systems more than anything concrete is the culprit for their failure. Someone very well read in Chinese history would probably get me, since this process is much harder to see in Western society, as low population density is the historical norm and we had generous time to figure these things out.
roche
15d ago
Had a random thought that really kinda depressed me. It was thinking about my father and extended family as a whole, and how I can naturally relate to them a lot, while in the world at large I butt heads against people all the time from the sheer fact we're just so different. I remember Westerners laughing at those little tribes in Africa or Brazil with 99%+ genetic similarity that murder fractions of their populations, and do it again yearly, and the punchline is supposed to be Hey look at these idiots killing each other when they're so similar!, and yet they never stopped to think hey perhaps those tribes lived separately because their ancestors hated one another and split off from the same tribe generations ago, like the valley vs. highland people, and this happens constantly in hunter-gatherer societies when there's conflict, and our society is a spectacular achievement in taming groups that should by all accounts loathe one another, by hiding who we are through politeness and living in Dunbar's number-adjacent circles of moderate genetic similarity.
Knowing the reason we fight is pretty much just genetics is a downer.
roche
17d ago
Party. It's a gross phenomenon when parties tailor their every little motion to match the flow of the crowd (or really a clumsy, out-of-touch notion of the people), and even uneducated Americans can probably sense they have no other real motive. Like parents who spoil their children and bend their will to match the kid, the whole process feels backwards. Presidents are leaders, but these apparatuses don't select for actual leaders because a tough guy maverick will refuse to play by the rules. I get the ick looking at parties; How's a bunch of followers going to produce a leader? It's backwards.
Yep. Here's the initiation ceremony for Saiva Tantrikas, for example.
Try holotropic breathing. Like meditation or psychedelics it gets stronger across consecutive days.
Non-dual perspectives are fine, but we need to draw a distinction between metaphysical truths on the one hand, and perceptive shifts on the other. You can make yourself believe in any religion you'd like, it's easy, happens all the time.
The brain is trying to maintain homeostasis at all times, and part of that homeostasis is a consistent world-view, which is why a huge fraction of the pain when something horrific happens isn't just the pain, but the fact it wasn't supposed to be this way! yet it is. There's basically a high floor of cognitive dissonance that you, I, and everyone else are operating on at all times where we assume that certain very bad things in this world simply won't happen to us. Other people get ball cancer, but me...? Nah. You rejoinder Oh that would be a waste of mental energy, duh, we're just being practical! but the point is we don't have a plan for when things go really south, which is why most cases of psychosis happen precisely because our mental models are exploded, and it's why the zenith of LSD experience is the whole universe aligning to a single purpose, while the nadir of LSD is a total fracture of your world view, like "Oh shit I was a chair rotting in an abandoned factory for 20 years and my previous life was a lie!". We're the only species that has psychosis, and the only one that has "world views". Your body will do some truly impressive shit to maintain homeostasis, which is the premise behind meditation, and this thread. Including the placebo effect. This is an area that's not being explored.
Wanna try an experiment? Do some heavy thinking during sex, and pay attention to your thoughts during orgasm. There should be a brief, brief period of ecstasy where your thoughts connect and everything naturally clicks into place. It's very neat.
Curious, I'll look it over.
I mentioned Krishnamurti downthread; this is probably how he achieved his "calamity". For any worries about going insane, I'd like to suggest the likelihood of going insane from any altered state of consciousness correlates with the amount of thinking you do during the state. Doing heavy thinking while deep in meditation is essentially screwing with the wiring of your perception, you are almost definitely in over your head, while Zen-style "no-thoughts-head-empty" is harmless if you have the discipline to do it properly.
Tantra and Tibetan practices are the most confusing side of Buddhism, and I've yet to find a good resource on it. So yeah, sorry. I really need to get back into looking around.
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