rae
1yr ago
Smell is the one thing that’s pretty much guaranteed with HRT. Trans women smell like women and trans men definitely smell like men, even “down there”. Skin texture also dramatically changes.
Looking female will depend on this early the transition is and the individual’s baseline. Some will pass as female to the average person but remain “clockable” to people who know what to look for. Some trans women who started off hormones young enough will be indistinguishable, some are lucky to pass after a few surgeries. But we definitely can’t take any random biological adult male and making him fully look like a woman.
Reproduction isn’t there yet, but some results of sexual reassignment surgery are quite visually impressive, others less so (Thai surgeons for instance are known to have better results and use a different technique). For some, it has been enough to fool unsuspecting men before (plenty of reports of trans women going stealth) and it certainly is enough to reduce dysphoria and function as a sexual organ in most cases. However, it is a gamble.
I’d say current technology is good enough to alleviate dysphoria and at the very least there’s no point of delaying taking HRT in the hopes of a better transhumanist future. But if you’re just curious and want a magic gender swap to experience life as the opposite sex for whatever reason, obviously we’re not there yet and the current treatments should absolutely not be taken lightly as some changes are irreversible.
rae
1yr ago
I’m an atheist and consider myself a moral relativist, which is to me is quite distinct from being a moral nihilist. Morality, to me, is a subjective human construct but that doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist; it exists in that same sphere as concepts, ideas and beliefs. It’s based on axioms which are essentially arbitrary; the only thing you can do is point out logical contradictions ensuing from them. In that manner, it’s quite similar to maths, which also don’t materially exist but certainly can be studied.
I find the very concept that morality could ever be objective to be logically incoherent; whatever moral “truth” you come up with, I can immediately just invent another worldview that contradicts it due to having different axioms. Even if God existed, I don’t see why I couldn’t disagree with his morality. The fact that he created me or the universe doesn’t grant him any philosophical authority any more than my parents, and being omnipotent just makes him a cosmic dictator with the power to punish me if I stray from his own personal beliefs.
rae
1yr ago
I think there is a definitely a truth to the social contagion aspect for a sizeable amount of FtMs - they comprise the majority of de-transitioners and their numbers have surged in recent years. But I disagree about this part:
The condition has no observable physical symptoms, no objective correlative. If I tell you I’m really a man, you have to take my word for it.
There are a number of physical correlations to being trans, which I’ve previously touched on in a previous post. Mutations associated with MTHFR deficiency were found in 98% of transgender patients in one clinic (versus the expected 20%) and both endocrine abnormalities and auto-immune issues are quite common. Treating the correlates actually seems to improve the psychiatric distress associated with being transgender, although it’s still very early.
The recent surge in trans people could very well be explained by similar factors as to what’s driving the increase in autism, ADHD, autoimmune diseases, inflammation, etc. For instance, micro plastics and other endocrine disrupters in the environment and diet, low vitamin D from not going outside, the recent recommendation for pregnant women to take folate supplements, etc. “Putting chemicals in the water that turn the friggin’ frogs gay” is pretty close to the truth, funnily enough.
So if you want to stop young adolescent females from transitioning, instead of blaming it on social contagion and the media, perhaps you should first see if they have congenital adrenal hyperplasia, polycystic ovarian syndrome, or abnormal testosterone levels; there’s a high chance that’s the case.
rae
1yr ago
I think a lot more men would like those activities if it weren’t for social stigma. Fashion for men was historically huge in the West and is very prevalent in some countries still, make-up is getting more and more popular for men in Korea, and lots of men are addicted to shopping, just for “male-coded” things like video games or gear for their hobbies. And I know a lot of masculine gym bros who suddenly got obsessed with taking selfies the moment their physique became visible.
rae
1yr ago
I’m a bisexual trans woman so I got to experience some manner of both, but I do agree that the effect is greatly confounded by deeper issues like dysphoria.
My main experience would be that sex with men is a lot more variable, in that the bad is much worse but the good is a lot better, and the quality depends quite a lot on your partner, while with women it’s generally fairly average and depends more on your own state than the other person. So casual sex would be better for most men, but relationship sex would be better for women with the right partner.
The peak physiological pleasure is definitely greater when you’re a woman though, multiple full-body orgasms aren’t really a thing for men (trans men generally keep the ability to have multiple if they had it before, but they become otherwise closer to the male ones: brief and concentrated in the genitals). I certainly don’t miss the male sexual experience at all and see it as the equivalent of sexual fast food vs. going to a proper restaurant.
rae
1yr ago
Also casual sex tends to be a mediocre experience for women; you tend to orgasm even less than in relationships (32% vs 72% from a quick Google search), you’re at the mercy of someone much bigger and stronger than you (most men don’t seem to really grasp this), the risk is higher (STDs, pregnancy, sexual assault, etc).
I’ve been with a few women in the past (although I didn’t particularly enjoy it) and it was depressing how many would be surprised by the fact that I seemed to care about them at all.
I don’t think anyone will argue against the fact that women’s life outcomes tend to cluster around the averages while men tend to the extremes, however I do think you’re overstating the importance of those factors in the life outcomes of average people. Middle-class men in developed countries are already unlikely to be involved in crime, to have a blue-collar occupation, to join the military (the draft has been abolished in many places), to end up homeless, etc.
But the question is, what do you want to about it? Many of the issues are the “fault” of men in that they actively choose riskier lifestyles with a higher payoff, due to cultural and hormonal factors. Most lower class men, at the bottom of the totem pole and life outcomes, will even mock any attempts to fix those issues and take pride in their violent masculine lives, while they don’t really impact the middle and upper classes.
If you’re an individual man, you can absolutely bridge the gap by investing in a bigger social circle of people who care about you, being paranoid about your physical safety when going outside (as many women are, while I know many men who are completely oblivious), having a better work-life balance, not taking risks and choosing a stable boring career, be willing to go to therapy, etc. But a lot of men are unwilling to do those things.
rae
1yr ago
Ok? I'm unhappy that we can't fly, that we age, and that we can't eat and talk at the same time. In the context of decrying the sex-change limitation as "morally abhorrent and the equivalent to a dystopian caste system" you make it sound like an artificial man-made limitation rather than just a reflection of reality's limitation. I find this particular thread confusing.
Well, humans being upset that they couldn’t fly is what led to the invention of the airplane. And you should rightly be upset at ageing, there’s far too many people many excuses for what’s the #1 killer out there; if it can be even just slowed down, the quality of life of many would significantly improve. I find ageing abhorrent and cruel in the same way I find forced gender roles and sexual biology to be.
Accordingly, your feminine appearance serves as a billboard-size instruction manual to others on how you prefer to be interacted with in the context of relationships.
Is that a fair paraphrasing?
Fairly spot on assessment to be honest.
(though that wouldn't explain to me wanting/needing to identify as a completely different gender).
There’s no “rational” psychological motivation for the physical gender dysphoria, it’s more of a neurological/endocrinological problem from what I’ve been researching. There it’s more of a visceral reaction of disgust towards your own body; like if you saw yourself as physically deformed.
But on the social side, you can imagine that being a feminine male is inferior to being a normal woman, both in terms of personal safety, how others treat you, your dating options, and the very way you have sex. A lot of the thoughts can be “ah, if only I was a real woman, I wouldn’t have X issue”.
I don’t personally “identify” as a woman, I just like it when I happen to pass well enough that people assume I’m one. As I’ve said before, I don’t care about whatever an internal sense of gender identity means.
rae
1yr ago
So how do you refer to someone who’s straight, but in a wheelchair? Or a cis autistic person? You can be “normal” in one axis but not another. Surely it’s handy to have a word that refers to the default attribute?
If you feel denigrated being called straight, do you also feel denigrated being called right handed (assuming you are)? Or would you want to be called normal handed?
To me your argument just sounds like the same language policing that the left is oft guilty of, but with a right wing flavour.
rae
1yr ago
Based on how you describe "opting out" of sex, it sounds like you're using 'sex' to mean 'gender role' rather than referring to gamete size like I am.
While I am certainly unhappy about the enforcement of gender roles, I’m also unhappy about being born into a physical sex without having the ability to change it. There’s a number of physical differences between men and women, the biggest being the reproductive system and physical characteristics.
Correct me if I'm wrong but if so then I would be very curious to know what exactly you mean when you say that you had "no choice to opt out or change or try other [gender role] options". What exactly did you want but were unable to have prior to transitioning? What exactly were you able to gain only after transitioning? I'm very curious to know!
My primary motivation for transitioning was purely physical dysphoria; HRT is a tremendous help and it does let me be closer to the opposite sex hormonally and physically, even if it’s not magic. I assume you’re more interested in the non-physical motivations though?
So the biggest one would be relationships. I wasn’t comfortable dating gay men or masculine-attracted bisexual men; many didn’t understand my dysphoria and were attracted to parts of me I hated. I disliked the general “vibes” of the gay dating scene, the focus on casual sex and the lack of desire for romance and long-term commitment.
But as a trans woman, I’ve dated feminine-attracted bisexual men and get treated completely differently. I’ll admit I do enjoy the gender roles when it comes to relationships; I like masculine men who know how to flirt and seduce me, who take me out on dates, make me feel safe and protected, find me attractive as a feminine person, and want to have sex with me the way a straight man wants to have sex with a woman.
I did try to have that without transitioning, but it felt like swimming against the current; I actually was dating feminine attracted bisexual men before as a youth and discovered the gender roles I liked that way. But as a man, I felt inadequate, and knew the kind of man I wanted would be wayyy more attracted to me in if I was a woman.
I also like getting gendered female, and avoiding getting male stereotypes assigned to me; no one asks me to lift heavy objects, or assumes I have any interest in sports, cars, fighting, women, or other stereotypically manly things. Lazy perhaps, but a plus for me.
rae
1yr ago
I can’t change society or social expectations for men, but by transitioning I can be perceived and treated as a woman and that certainly solves my problem. Plus, it alleviates my physical dysphoria - a topic which you didn’t really address in your post. Even in a perfect pansexual non-gendered utopia, the latter would still remain - I’m not transitioning because I want to wear a dress or put on make-up or any other superficial trappings of femininity. I’m transitioning because being physically male is psychologically painful for me and I couldn’t stand any further masculinisation. Now of course there’s social benefits which are a motivating factor, but again, I can’t change society, I can only change myself.
Some trans activists do encourage gender stereotypes - I assume this is why you brought up Iran’s approach, which has no room for gender non-conformity (or homosexuality) and just allows you to transition between two rigid boxes. I am very much against that, I believe you should be able to pick and choose which aspects of femininity and masculinity you want both in yourself and in a partner. I don’t even want to be a feminine woman; so I fail to see how my transitioning is enforcing gender roles.
rae
1yr ago
Complaining about the state of nature won’t change it, but humans have over and over been able to overcome what was previously an inevitable law of nature. You don’t have to splat when you jump from a tall building if you have a parachute (although BASE jumping is still very dangerous). Women don’t have to fear becoming pregnant against their will to the same degree when there’s birth control (obviously this doesn’t help with the trauma of being raped, I’ve been sexually assaulted by a male myself and it’s an awful experience regardless of the pregnancy risk). With regards to gender and sex, we’re not all the way there yet, but I’m grateful that HRT exists and I can bypass some of my male biology.
rae
1yr ago
I’m fine with both transition and correction being available. I doubt there will be a 100% effective way to correct gender dysphoria at any age - from Dr. Power’s preliminary research, T suppression in potential FtMs works only if started in early adolescence (and there’s currently no pathway for MtFs), and the individuals still remain gender non-conforming.
I’m favouring the “mosaic brain” hypothesis of gender dysphoria where certain brain structures are improperly feminised/masculinised to varying degree, starting in the womb. So if you wanted to be sure to prevent gender dysphoria, you’d have to start monitoring foetal conditions. This is actually a promising path, there’s potential evidence that ties folate supplementation to increased estradiol production in the womb in certain mothers, which would be linked to increased rates of autism and gender variance. I wouldn’t have any opposition to this kind of “prevention”.
In my case I feel like trying to correct gender dysphoria at puberty might have already been too late - by the time male puberty arrived, my brain had developed enough to feel incredibly not only emotionally traumatised but intellectually against the very concept of growing up to be male. So transitioning needs to remain an option for those that wouldn’t be able to get the endocrine abnormalities treated in time.
As an aside, I find the idea of being unwillingly born into a sex that defines so much of your life, socially and physically, with no choice to opt out or change or try other options, to be morally abhorrent and the equivalent to a dystopian caste system. While dysphoria is an unfortunate condition, I’m actually very grateful for having had the opportunity to explore possibilities beyond straight and cis-gendered norms, and I think gender variance is a net positive for the world - the ideal human takes the best of both masculine and feminine traits, rather than rigidly adhere to either box.
rae
1yr ago
How do you demonstrate that you suffer from gender dysphoria though? I guess it could be accessible to anyone who has transitioned for more than X time. But what’s the real point of having your gender marked on your driver’s license or birth certificate? On the driver’s license it should be obvious from the picture, and if it’s not, what is adding F/M going to do?
Mostly, I’m generally against dividing and discriminating anything by sex - it’s just as discriminatory as dividing by race or other physical characteristics, although I am aware of the impractical reality of removing some gender based discrimination (e.g. prisons). To me, any solution is a compromise until we reach a transhuman utopia where bodies can be changed at will and sex stops mattering. Probably won’t happen in my life time, but advances can still be made in that direction.
rae
1yr ago
Unfortunately vocal anti-trans activists are just as bad as the vocal trans activists you described. A relatively moderate trans medicalist perspective as you described would be just as vilified by either side.
Also, I’m not necessarily in favour of strict gatekeeping of trans identity when it comes to medical treatment, especially for adults, for the same reasons I’m not in favour of strict gatekeeping for ADHD. You’re incentivising whoever is most motivated to get through the gatekeepers, and those aren’t necessarily the ones that would benefit the most from the treatment. See this excellent post by Scott Alexander.
Although in the case of the trans activists you mentioned, it wouldn’t be a problem as they’re not interested in medically transitioning at all, so removing gatekeeping when it comes to HRT and surgery would have no effect on them. If you’re not actually dysphoric and pursue transition, it will give you reverse gender dysphoria - so having the gatekeeping be the medical treatment itself is self-correcting to some extent.
rae
1yr ago
I’m a trans person and I’m honestly tired of how politicised this condition has become. I’m going all-in on the hypothesis that’s it’s a physical condition caused by an endocrine abnormality. I highly recommend reading this post or any of Dr Powers’ posts on his subreddit.
All of this philosophising on the nature of transgenderism is like trying to psychoanalyse the cause of stomach ulcers (which is something clinicians did until they were revealed to be caused by bacteria). There’s clearly something physically abnormal with transgender people and their brains, and one of the manifestations of that is gender dysphoria and behaviour atypical of the patient’s birth sex.
I don’t care one iota about my “gender identity”, following any gender scripts, or whether my interests are typical for men or women. I don’t “identify as a woman”, whatever that means. I would vastly prefer if pro-trans clinicians focused on actual clinical markers like improper methylation of testosterone, or the extremely high rates of PCOS in trans male patients, or MTHFR mutations. This is the kind of scientific research that would actually help our understanding of transgender people.
Instead we have this focus on babies turning their onesie into a dress. Anybody on both sides can write a lengthy essay full of navel gazing on the sociological basis of gendered behaviour that supports their pet theory, and turn being trans into a moral problem. You can debate endlessly about what is a woman, which is a philosophical problem. Or you can do DNA testing on trans patients and discover rates of certain mutations far in excess of the normal population, examine aromatase and sex hormone production, and look at correlations between gender dysphoria and other physical conditions.
Seems to be like the latter is far more useful. Plus, no one can have a political argument over DNA methylation patterns.
rae
1yr ago
I personally am for giving minors access to gender affirming healthcare if they have gender dysphoria, and I’d say you pass the ideological Turing test as I’m pretty much in agreement with those points. Can I ask why you’re against it?
rae
1yr ago
They’re not those things because they’re women, they’re those things because they’re overly feminine. I’ve met gay men, trans women, even straight men who also fall into those stereotypes, and women who don’t. The point is why you’d want a more masculine partner vs. a feminine one regardless of sex.
rae
1yr ago
Yes.
For men who are attracted to femininity, wouldn’t submissiveness, being family-oriented, making the man feel strong by needing his protection, gender roles etc. be the point, not shortcomings?
I’m the opposite, I don’t understand why anyone would find feminine behaviour attractive. Why wouldn’t you much rather have a partner that’s strong, stoic, driven, ambitious, practical, able to provide for both themselves or for you, takes the lead, etc? Versus one that’s submissive, meek, relies on you for emotional and physical reassurance, is more anxious and stressed out, doesn’t have grand ambitions beyond their family, is more interested in people than concepts, and forces the relationship into artificially divided roles based on gender?
Now sure I’m not a straight guy so it’s hard for me to empathise, but I honestly can’t understand why men fall in love with feminine women when I hear them complain so much about how they can’t understand their partner, how they don’t share interests, how they’re [insert stereotype of women here], how they don’t initiate sex, etc. Why not go for an equal life partner who shares your drive, focus and interests, and is just as sexually motivated as you instead?
Chasers aren’t gay, they’re GAMP (gynandromorphile), meaning they’re attracted to the combination of female and male traits, generally a standard female body + male genitalia. Genital arousal studies have been made on this.
Also this reflects my experience, the type of man I attract as a trans woman is different from the type of man I attracted as a gay man. The former type is genuinely attracted to femininity - they love when I wear make-up, lingerie, or otherwise act feminine, whereas gay men don’t care about that one bit and are often actively turned off.
I’m fine dating bisexual men so I don’t care too much, unlike some trans women who are absolutely obsessed with getting straight men to validate their femininity. But I couldn’t date a gay man.
rae
1yr ago
I like women, real women, that sounds somehow prejudiced or old fashioned but if you believe sex is real then it actually means something.
Sex alone doesn’t govern your attraction. You’re not attracted to ovary ducts or XX chromosomes, you’re attracted to the female phenotype. Otherwise you’d be attracted to the very good looking trans men I linked earlier.
I viscerally would not want to have sex with a man, and especially a man pretending to be a woman. This is just me and is no reflection on the other person.
Getting called a man, especially a “man pretending to be a woman”, is distressing for trans women. That is why many attempt to pass. It’s also a way to avoid the negative attention that being a visibly trans person can bring - many people are hostile towards trans women, but if they see you as a regular woman, you’ll be safer.
Personally, I’m hoping that one day we have the technology to have good enough sex changes that trans women are indistinguishable from cis women including in terms of reproductive capabilities. At that point, would you still say they are men pretending to be women, or would you agree that they are men who have turned into women?
But the body to me is not just a sack of meat, it is the primary link to reality and a failure to accept it seems to me like a failure to truly accept oneself. That probably sounds judgemental but it's how I orient to life.
Why should I accept it when I can change it? The option is literally there, it’s not perfect but it made a noticeable improvement in my life.
If anything, accepting being trans is what took the most courage. I tried to deny it for years, and tried to be something I wasn’t.
Be gay, be a feminine man, be gender non-conforming but why change your body drastically with all the attendant risks,
Believe me, I’ve tried everything else. I couldn’t stand my body before I transitioned, now I can finally stand to look at myself in the mirror. Life is short, and the option not to have a body I despise is literally right there. Why shouldn’t I take it? What’s the upside of being miserable?
Now, I can have real relationships, I can enjoy sex, I can be a lot more intimately fulfilled than I used to be. I’m grateful for all the physical changes I am experiencing, a marked difference from how I dreaded puberty (I may not know what it’s like to be a woman, but I certainly know what it’s like to become more of a man by going through male puberty and male aging, and that was an awful experience).
rae
1yr ago
What exactly is the harm in a trans woman passing as a woman? I agree that you should disclose to your romantic partner and medical professional, but otherwise, why do you owe work colleagues, acquaintances, random service workers on the streets the need to know your biological sex?
But out of curiosity, why would you feel violated if you were attracted to a woman and found out she was trans? By a romantic sense, are you talking about just going on a date, or having sex? In either case, how exactly were you harmed? You were attracted to her, had a presumably enjoyable experience (assuming she is post-op)… so what pushes you towards wanting to inflict violence on her?
I personally would always disclose to a romantic or sexual partner, and would keep doing so even if I was stealth and post-op, both out of principle and desire for my own safety. But I still don’t see how you are harmed in this interaction. There’s certainly straight men out there who have no problem having sex with trans women and don’t let it impact their sexuality, and some who aren’t into it at all but just politely decline and move on.
I’m much more averse to altering my brain than altering my body. To me a perfect sex change would be plopping my existing brain into a body of the opposite sex, while a dysphoria cure would involve fundamentally altering my existing brain structure.
Me with a different set of genitals is still me; me after a treatment that changes my self-perception and my sexuality… seems like a much bigger change.
To me the gender swap is the cochlear implants, whereas the curing gender dysphoria is like making you OK with being deaf and having you live in an idyllic deaf community. Sure, some of those people are very happy, and it’s better than being miserable because you don’t know what everyone around you is saying, but I would much prefer to be able to actually hear.
Here is a decent blogpost that goes into detail with a few links: https://kate.meyerhome.net/blog/2023/meyer-powers-syndrome-lenore-syndrome
While some correlations have been known, most of them are understudied but definitely deserve further attention.
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