TokenTransGirl
No bio...
User ID: 3226
TokenTransGirl
13d ago
I appreciate the response and I'm glad I could clear stuff up. I don't mind a bit of combative when people are still willing to listen and continue the dialogue in good faith like you :)
TokenTransGirl
14d ago
Frankly, I think the two definitions of "woman" you're using (one commonsense and straightforward, the other postmodern and controversial) amount to a motte-and-bailey fallacy, and I don't like motte-and-bailey fallacies on general principle.
You asked me what I personally thought, and I assumed that meant you wanted to know how I use language in practice. When I am off in trans spaces, everyone uses "woman" to mean one thing, and I'm trying to be honest and open about that. That's it. I am explicitly acknowledging that "gender is a feeling" is a bailey: it is not a defensible position. I am explicitly acknowledging that "women are people who have/want a vagina" is my motte; it's the position I can actually defend.
I believe in something I can't defend: I can't prove that I "feel like a woman" but it doesn't mean that I don't. It would be dishonest to hide the fact that I do feel like a woman. But it would also be a different sort of intellectually dishonest to act like that's a defensible motte that I can reasonably expect other people to respect. All you have is my word, and there's certainly at least a few bad actors out there who are happy to parrot the same words.
I'm not even sure how I could pull a motte-and-bailey when I've got them marked out for your convenience like that?
I think I've been pretty clear about what definitions I'm asking about in any given conversation thus far. If I do slip up, I'm happy to clarify.
(Unlike a lot of trans activists, I also think we can use a little common sense and assume "only women can get pregnant" obviously refers to people with uteruses, even if I disagree and think we should call people women once they've got a vagina. I don't want to get bogged down in stupid semantic games when it's absolutely obvious what you mean by that sentence. I do not think we have any disagreement over who has large gametes, who has a uterus, or who can get pregnant.)
TokenTransGirl
15d ago
it's when doctors encourage body modification to express one's non-binariness that I'm starting to think that things are getting out of hand, and we need to put a stop to it.
That feels a bit oddly phased. Presumably it is the patient who is expressing a desire for this, and going through a fairly lengthy bureaucratic process - especially for anything non-binary. I don't think there's a bunch of doctors out there going "have you considered transition?" I would indeed find it super creepy for one's personal doctor to be offering recommendations like that unless the patient is listing off dysphoria symptoms.
That said, if someone knowingly undergoes surgery, and this routinely makes those people happier, I don't see any reason to stop it. I support people doing other forms of cosmetic surgery, getting tattoos, etc.. My general understanding is that very few people regret these surgeries, partly because there is still generally a lengthy bureaucratic process weeding out anyone doing this on a whim. If it makes them happy, why not?
TokenTransGirl
15d ago
Words have multiple definitions, yeah. I think one can draw a reasonable consensus at "a woman is someone with a vagina", but I personally, in my head, use it to mean "someone in the ma'am cluster." If we are arguing about how you categorize people, I feel unreasonable imposing my personal definition. But if you ask me how I personally categorize people, I want to be honest about the system I'm actually using.
I don't think there's anything invalid with the category "people who want to use female pronouns". We can talk semantics about circular reasoning and all of that, but at the end of the day it seems very obvious that some people are delighted by "ma'am" and some people are extremely offended by it. Do you have some problem with me, personally, calling Samantha a woman and saying she/her?
TokenTransGirl
15d ago
Chrome seems to be pushing in a strong anti-ad-blocker direction lately, so I'm on Firefox.
On the rare occasions I need to search for something, it's usually a Google search using "site:reddit.com" to eliminate SEO spam. I haven't seen any real gains using alternative search engines, and Google is at least familiar.
TokenTransGirl
15d ago
I think that if you want to convince people that Communism is bad, the best way to do that is to explain that Socialism is something else entirely. My general experience is that people want a social safety net and some degree of regulation, but once you explain the idea of leaving The Government in charge they at least realize they don't want The Other Side to ever gain that sort of power. There's also a huge wealth of historical examples to work from, here.
Now, if you want to convince people that Socialism is bad, that's a very different conversation...
TokenTransGirl
15d ago
Once she's made this clear to you, do you continue referring to her as a woman? Or no?
I mean, personally, I'm not harmed at all by her. I personally have no objections to this. I'll call her "she/her" and Samantha, because it seems rude to do otherwise. My mental classification will be "female" because to me female just means "person I refer to as she/her".
Other women have expressed that, for instance, they would not be comfortable dating Samantha because of it. I think that's reasonable.
If Samantha goes on a rant about how people are transphobic for not dating her, just because she has a penis, I will think she's full of shit and making the rest of us look bad.
TokenTransGirl
15d ago
I'm glad to know I'm not the only one a little horrified by those :)
TokenTransGirl
15d ago
Well, keep in mind: I know thousands of trans women online. That's a lot of evidence that it is successful. So any study has to overcome my prior, and explain why there's a huge cluster of visibly-happy trans women, but I never meet any of these people who regret it. I'm the sort of trans woman who wanders onto The Motte and TERF forums and so forth, and I have yet to encounter any such cluster. (There's certainly a few, of course)
I'm also referring to actual studies when I say we feel happier, so you'd have to reconcile why the two studies disagreed.
But, yeah, if 10% of trans women regret it, I think we maybe need to tighten up the gates a little bit, or at least make that warning a LOT clearer within the community. If 50% regret it, I think I'd have to spend a few days seriously reconsidering my world view.
This is all assuming actual regret, too. Right now, "happiness" is a bit tricky to measure: Maybe someone gained 100 happiness points from transitioning, but lost 150 because now they're subject to a lot more bigotry. I think in that case, the right solution is to fix the cultural bigotry, not to block transition.
TokenTransGirl
15d ago
I think a lot of trans women genuinely fall into the older, classic model like me. It's really hard to say if it represents the actual community, because there's some loud voices that want to make the newest ideology the only one, but I do think there's a lot of people like me, and still are, even if we're no longer the majority within the trans community. I think there's a lot more of us than you'd guess, simply because we tend to be quiet: we already got what we want, as long as we don't draw attention to ourselves.
I have a bit of trouble taking someone seriously as a "trans woman" if they just want to self-identify, don't have dysphoria, and aren't even taking HRT, but... I'm asking people who don't believe I'm a woman to call me "she/her" anyway, so I'm at least fine with names and pronouns even there.
If we accept the idea that I want to have a cis-woman looking body despite not being born with one, it doesn't really surprise me that some people might want "non-binary" mixes. I don't really understand the category well myself, though. I think a lot of non-binary is much more about abolishing gender roles entirely - most cis women I meet who identify as "non-binary" just seem unhappy with society's concept of "female", or are viewing that concept through a fairly narrow lens. All that said, if you're actually going out and getting surgery, I'm going to take you seriously.
TokenTransGirl
16d ago
I'm aware of your spirituality - but I'm equally aware of mine. I believe that Jesus supports my decision, and that if he were here today he would "cure" me by making me indistinguishable from a cis woman. I'm no stranger to this being called a mental illness, either because someone doesn't agree that "Jesus" exists or because someone doesn't agree that "gender" exists. It seems like a fair equivalence myself - I'm asking you to have faith in some internal truth of mine that I can't prove to your satisfaction.
TokenTransGirl
16d ago
Sorry, I'm having a dozen slightly different conversations, and it can be hard to keep track of them. My point on urinals is that merely seeing a penis is not harmful. I have seen vastly more penises in the men's bathroom than I have seen in any other context. Stadiums and those big trough urinals are especially awful here. There are a lot of penises on display, even if supposedly no is trying to "show off."
I also, separately, think you're wrong about how often guys do enjoy showing off, but maybe I just got unlucky growing up. The core point is that people routinely have their entire dick out and exposed, and strangers are going to accidentally see a bunch of penises in there whether they want to or not. Maybe not every time you pee, but over a lifetime you're certainly going to see a lot more cocks than if we didn't have urinals. Some bathroom designs are certainly better here, but if we actually cared about privacy I dare say we could do a lot better.
TokenTransGirl
16d ago
Alright, well, if we agree on that then cool. Not much else to say :)
TokenTransGirl
16d ago
Well, you're consistent at least. I do think a realistic assessment of health ought to look at happiness a fair bit more, though. I was never going to reproduce for a variety of reasons, so I think it's totally reasonable to trade that off for happiness. I think people have plenty of hobbies that make them happy, despite being dangerous: they drive cars, they drink alcohol, they eat badly.
On a spiritual level... I'm not much for formal churches and whatnot, but as best as I can tell, my soul, my connection to the divine, wanted me to do this. I trust it, because when I was even younger, it held me back and said no, you're not ready to do this yet, and looking back I think it was right.
But there is a difference between getting a hormone treatment to treat your mental illness and trying to make everyone else in society believe your mental illness.
Plenty of people are spiritual, and plenty of people think it's a mental illness. I'm spiritual myself, but I still expect the people in the latter category to try and show some respect for people of faith.
TokenTransGirl
16d ago
That all seems quite fair to me. I think a lot of what I've been curious about is whether the backlash is "really" about more permissive laws, or if it's just that we've become a lot more visible. It's not an easy question to explore in most spaces! TERFs mostly seem disgusted by our very existence and don't want to compromise at all. The trans community is unfortunately dominated by a lot of extremists yelling everyone else down. And of course, it's the sort of conversation where society likes to yell and scream at anyone who dares express the "wrong" opinion, so most people are just unwilling to actually speak their mind.
So, thanks for being part of a cool community where I could actually hold this conversation, and find it productive :)
TokenTransGirl
16d ago
Now that I've learned a bit about the definitions here, this actually seems even easier:
The basic idea behind trans ideology is that sometimes you get a person, a trans woman, who is born as a guy. Despite this, they feel a strong desire to modify their body to have breasts and a vagina. When they modify their body in this way, they become much happier - it is one of the most successful medical interventions, on that axis.
So, a woman is someone who prefers to have a vagina rather than a penis, and vice-versa. But of course "prefers" is really hard to confirm, so let us instead say: a woman is someone with a vagina.
Tada! Nothing circular, and nothing referring to any sort of immutable biology.
I'm totally aware that plenty of trans activists want to go beyond this, of course, but it seems pointless to discuss anything past this point without first agreeing to this point. If you reject this, then obviously you reject anything more radical, and I'm more curious where the possible middle-ground is. I don't like the modern trans "grab as much privilege as we can" attitude at all; I just want to pee in peace, and that requires at least some willingness to compromise.
(I am less familiar with trans men, I will admit. I get the impression their goalposts are more "remove boobs and grow a beard", which still doesn't refer to anything immutable or circular)
TokenTransGirl
16d ago
We're talking about, like, 100 out of 300,000 trans women misbehaving. Do you really think there are not 100 men in the UK that have waved their penis around and tried to make people uncomfortable? Or are just socially oblivious and therefore always take the closest urinal instead of spacing out?
My personal experience with locker rooms is that if you take 100 guys, there'll be at least one that Really Clearly Does Not Mind Showing Off. Maybe they're not actively strutting around with an erection, but they're making zero effort to hide it, they're taking their sweet time changing, and they're more than happy to walk over for a conversation with it danging right there. Congratulations on you not personally being a victim of all that, but as a victim... I find it really weird that everyone here just wants to ignore that and reassure me that no, unlike my experience, everyone ELSE gets taken seriously an there's consequences when it happens to THEM.
But also, if the standard is purely "subjected to social consequences", then... what's the problem? It still feels insulting to me to say that cis women are utterly incompetent and can't even handle a simple disruption like this, but somehow it's absolutely zero problem for men to handle it. In what other areas are women too psychologically frail to handle things that don't affect men? If women can't even handle one person behaving inappropriately in the bathroom, why in the world are we trusting them to be police officers and politicians?
TokenTransGirl
16d ago
Alright, that seems fair. I do think there's some important semantics, but at the end of the day the thing I actually care about is bathrooms and such, not whether everyone thinks like me.
TokenTransGirl
16d ago
You keep retreating into semantics, and dodging the question: why is it important to sort a post-op trans-woman into the men's locker room? Why is it totally acceptable and safe for a trans woman to show off her neovagina in a men's locker room, but showing off that neo-vagina in front of cis women should be a crime?
TokenTransGirl
17d ago
I mean, if your criteria is "menstruation", then you have to exclude the cis women who don't menstruate, even if they're rare. Otherwise, it's not really menstruation you care about. This is just how logical categories work. We create categories because they're useful for our purposes, and I can't fathom what purpose you're looking at here.
I mean, yes, if you're looking for someone to get pregnant, I'm a bad choice. But so is the infertile cis woman! And if you just want to get laid, surely the question is whether the experience is enjoyable?
I can see why this information is important to share with fellow trans women, and I'm not arguing that it's not true. I just don't see why you care or how it affects you, even if we're fucking?
TokenTransGirl
17d ago
I think there's a large contingent of mixed-race people who "pass" as one race or another without any real controversy. No one seems particularly concerned that light-skinned black people might "pass" as white, and no one seems to object to calling Italians white anymore.
I think, outside that category, you mostly only find "bad actors" who are looking to abuse the system.
If it turns out that 1% of the population really does, in good faith, identify as "trans-racial" and undergoes permanent surgical alteration to achieve that... I mean, wild, didn't see that coming, but... okay, we probably should accept that. And maybe we were being dicks for mocking those "drop of Native American blood" types. But when it's a handful of people who are pretty clearly just trying to gain an advantage... I don't see any particular reason we need to accept that?
I also think on a systemic level, we give advantages to women because they are currently threatened, and the best good comes from extending those protections to trans women. Conversely, racial affirmative action is meant to adjust for inequalities from the past: an unequal starting position. So extending those protections to someone who did not actually have that unequal starting position doesn't make any sense. (I'm totally open to the idea that racial affirmative action is a failure, and we should focus on things like "actually born in poverty" instead. Racial justice isn't my area of expertise.)
It's worth noting that I'm focusing on a more moderate trans agenda here: I expect trans women to go on HRT, try to pass as female socially, and eventually undergo surgery. I think there's benefits to protecting people who are only partway through that process, but the goal is to protect people who are actually undergoing the process. You can't just stop at "self identifying" if you want society to accept you; you've got to meet people halfway.
TokenTransGirl
17d ago
they have an agenda
You say that like it's a weird, nefarious thing, but it seems like everyone who wants to change anything is obviously going to have an agenda?
I'm certainly not adverse to "abolish gender entirely" but it seems a lot easier to slot trans women into the existing system -vs- getting rid of the whole thing.
TokenTransGirl
17d ago
If we didn't assume that almost everyone is bipedal and able-bodied, when building new houses and office blocks, why would we bother building stairs as part of the new construction?
Um... you might want to read some building codes? If you assume everyone is bipedal and able-bodied, why all these requirements for elevators, and curb ramps for wheelchairs?
In fact, now that I think about it, this is just extremely basic Bayesian reasoning
Okay, we're going around in linguistic circles here. If you see someone in a wheelchair, you don't demand any further proof that they can't walk unless there's some sort of extraordinary situation. I'm asking that if you see me and think I'm female, that's also sufficient proof, and you let me go pee in the women's bathroom.
Word games aside, can I pee in the bathroom? I've got a vagina, which locker room do you want me in?
TokenTransGirl
17d ago
But the fact that a small number are, and the ones who aren't will not allow any sort of guardrails that might prevent this, means unfortunately you are basically siding with the predators.
I mean, that seems unfair. I'm off in the middle saying "no, I think some guard rails are fine, obviously this 100% self-identification experiment failed". How is that siding with predators? What would I have to do to switch sides, if that's not sufficient?
Are all of the rest of you publicly committing to acknowledging it when it turns out that Skibboleth was right and it's all fake outrage? Or are you just trying to impose a double standard?
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