Throwaway05
25m ago
Absolutely but what do people with those types of feelings do? They lash out impulsively crashing their car. They grab a weapon at hand and do something. Most commonly they attack the husband.
The mixture of poor/irrational planning and premeditation supposedly leans towards this kind of pathology.
Throwaway05
27m ago
I hear you that it looks weird, this is why initially I was team "she did it for some other reason" but when people I know and trust who have more expertise than me stake their reputations professionally (Resnick) and didactically (the podcast I linked) then you gotta have a think.
Throwaway05
29m ago
SSRIs are one of the most commonly used medication types in the world, to my knowledge there is no reliable evidence of long term harms beyond the known side effects. The side effect profile is one of the best in psychiatric medicine, in fact we do use them despite the fact that they have less clinical effect because the harms are so low. Research on effect size does not generate enthusiasm but anyone who has actually prescribed knows they work just not for all patients. They are also not highly addictive. Some can generate a mostly mild withdrawal syndrome but some don't. Something that is highly addictive is Heroin. Heroin and Zoloft are not in the same category.
Throwaway05
39m ago
This is true but you've already narrowed the solution space down quite a bit once you are talking about this from every motivation in the world to a much smaller subset with a higher percentage of possible explanations involving type of illness the insanity defense applies to.
Throwaway05
40m ago
Because most people's model of what the insanity defense means don't accurately reflect the case law.
It applies only to a very small subset of crimes complicated by mental illness, and generally does not lead to any increased freedom in the community or getting away with it.
Throwaway05
2hr ago
I have no objection to people attempting to evaluate for themselves the persuasiveness of the arguments, the research, the literature, and so on. It is very common here and elsewhere for people to just go "no fuck you they must be woke and im mad about covid" which is the exact level of analysis exhibited by the "he did it cause he's a gemini" people.
Psychiatry is fundamental a medical field which means that inter rater reliability, effect size, and so on are baked in and seriously researched. They do have some problems but most of that is structural (ex: SSRIs clearly work, why does the literature not show that to some extent?...well medical research is hard).
While medical research has all kinds of problems the stance here is comically overblown.
For instance most of the over-dx problems make sense in context (for instance giving people labels so they can get insurance coverage for therapy, scummy patients/doctors in the ADHD market, and so on).
Throwaway05
2hr ago
One of the things that changed my view on this is that I learned that a known (and incredibly dangerous) presentation of PPP in the literature is the waxing and waning presentation that would have explained LC's action.
To some extent it makes sense given our suspicion of the mechanism (and in contrast with normal schizophrenia etc).
Throwaway05
2hr ago
Right, I've personally interacted with convicts who said something like "yes I knew it was wrong but the moon goblins told me to" and it's like nope you knew it was wrong, to prison with you.
Throwaway05
2hr ago
It's a complicated construct but if you pick at it makes more sense. There isn't a rational reason to do this in the way she did. Most people just leave their kids or abandon them. Maybe you frame the husband. She slowly and intimately slaughtered her children making no effort to protect herself from the ramifications of her actions and with no clear gain (see: serial killers and sexual gratification, sicarios and money and fame).
This strongly points to something like altruistic filicide. She thought they were better off dead and that it was the right thing to do. That's pure madness.
In the case of a crime of passion you know what you were doing is wrong, if you try and pretend you were briefly randomly psychotic you'll get "by what mechanism" "oh so you chose to do drugs knowing that drugs are illegal and bad."
The crime to some extent does point to madness being an explainer.
Throwaway05
2hr ago
Can you point to something in the last 40 years that is clear and obvious bad science or a bad psychiatric theory?
Throwaway05
2hr ago
I mean I don't know what to say, the posts here involve a lot of demonstrably untrue statements and I've provided a link that provides education so that people can understand the various contexts and their is a large amount of outright refusal.
Assuming information is more incorrect because it comes from someone with information, training, and experience is obvious idiocy, but it does appear to be the stance you are advocating for.
Throwaway05
3hr ago
Would it reassure you to know that you can have schizophrenia, murder people because the moon goblins told you to, and still be found guilty (and therefore the insanity defense isn't applicable)?
Throwaway05
3hr ago
A rare but important side effect of SSRIs is that they can take someone who has undiagnosed bipolar disorder and make them manic (this makes intuitive sense, if a person has two poles and you block one of them you may end up with the other). For this reason before starting SSRIs doctors should carefully assess for a history of mania, hypomania, and bipolar. This is actually quite hard to do with a 100% certainty but 90-99 percent can easily be done so artfully that the patient won't even notice.
A subset of manic people become so manic they become untethered from reality (that is to say psychotic). A small subset of psychotic people are violent. An even smaller subset of those are homicidally violent.
I don't believe that this person was driven to kill her children by her SSRI (we have another, better explanation), I'm not sure that has ever happened. It is a theoretically possible and if you give SSRIs to hundreds of millions of people it could happen eventually.
Throwaway05
3hr ago
This a psychiatric (medical) matter not a psychological one.
Even if it was just psychology.....plenty of parts of the field have evidence base and predict the world. Some parts don't.
Do you feel qualified to assess if this specific thing is something that has well validated data or not?
Throwaway05
4hr ago
If you want to claim that modern psychology as practiced by modern psychologists has as much credibility as modern aerospace engineering as practiced by modern aerospace engineers, then just say that.
I've banged the drum on this being medicine and psychiatry not psychology half a dozen times.
People who literally cannot define psychosis are saying "she's not psychotic and the result of this is that women will get away with murder because of their periods."
The analogy holds.
Throwaway05
4hr ago
So this is starting to pick at things a bit (in a good way!).
In the case of LC the defense would argue that she is an otherwise decent person who is temporarily not herself, fixing the psychosis brings her back to her healthy baseline and returns her to a safe and productive member of the community, furthermore they would argue that it's not her fault for a variety of reasons (this isn't a chronic person who really needs to understand that they should take their medicines, this is someone new to the experience, also her doctors should have caught stuff).
A separate part of this is restoration and what to do when NGRI is determined. Quite often the outcome is that someone gets dumped into a psych hospital for 30+ years or even an entire lifetime. That's not much different or better than prison.
Throwaway05
4hr ago
The reason charges shouldn't be pressed (against granny) is because the person doesn't understand what was happening and why it was wrong.
That's the same reason charges shouldn't be pressed in patient's who have a valid insanity defense. They don't understand what is happening and why it was wrong.
Throwaway05
4hr ago
If you reframe this discussion as "I, a person who is not an aerospace engineer, is disagreeing with the findings of aerospace engineers who have no financial incentive and the inventor of the airplane, who happens to be hired by the defense" that is an accurate enough presentation.
It also makes the commentary look stupid.
I don't know what your job is, but imagine you are explaining something about your job and a used car salesman slams in like Kanye and goes ima let you finish but you are totally wrong.
That also sounds pretty stupid, no?
Throwaway05
4hr ago
Do you believe women have agency in the most extreme emotional situations under the influence of prescribed medication, and would you accord a similar agency to men in the same circumstance?
This is the kind of question that reveals fundamental misunderstanding in how the law functions, emotional extremis is completely unrelated to postpartum psychosis and is unrelated to NGRI findings.
Throwaway05
5hr ago
Judgement requires discernment. Most of the opinions on this case I see here and elsewhere are unwarranted opinions generally without any specific information about this case or information on how mental health or insanity pleas work in general.
It is the same level of zero effort opinion put forth by the women on social media who say that the husband did it "because he just looked like he did it okay." Prettying it up by appealing to anger at doctors for covid or wokeness doesn't change the fact that much of the ink spilled on this is uninformed and is absent any specific or general knowledge.
The number of times I've seen people mix together psychology and psychiatry, or argue that somehow this case was going to excuse women from murder charges because of natural hormone variations is unreal. Very basic misunderstandings of facts should be a sign to step back and ask questions.
I'm not seeing a lot of that.
Throwaway05
5hr ago
I didn't bring up transgenderism because it's not relevant. Medicine has blindspots just like everyone else does. Blindspots aren't the same as blindness.
Starting by blaming politics/wokeness/feminism/whatever is retarded. Investigate first then blame PRN. Sometimes a blindspot is pumped in Pharma money, but you can't just assume all drugs were only approved because of Pharma. That's stupid.
Insanity pleas are part of a long running attempt at codifying criminal responsibility that has been argued about through many waves of predominant social ideologies.
Also hysteria doesn't work the way you think it does, and bringing it up is a feminist complaint anyway?
Throwaway05
6hr ago
If charged granny would justifiably be able to say she was not in her usual state of health (medical or psychiatric), did not know what was real or was not real (psychosis), did not have capacity, and did not know what was right or wrong.
We choose not to press charges because yes that's a waste of resources, but the same fundamentals apply. She's not guilty by reason of mental health. The restoration of capacity is straightforward in that case but it can be in others also.
Throwaway05
6hr ago
So much of this is based off of misunderstandings and this is why I get so tremendously frustrated with people here.
Psychology is not a medical field. Psychiatry is. Large chunks of psychiatry are functionally psychology, large chunks are not and have just as good or bad of an evidence base as the rest of medicine. Usually people here complaining about medicine and psychiatry don't seem to realize that everyone involved has a very good understanding of what has firm and shaky evidence and so on. Psychiatry also is the victim of long running smear campaigns by august institutions like Scientology and individuals who literally have the inability to acknowledge they have an illness even as the voices tell them to kill their family.
With respect to the specific issue at hand only part of this is medical at all, a large chunk of it is multi-century long discussions in the fields of law, politics, and ethics about how governance, criminality, and the law work. Coming into an intellectual tradition of some of the wisest and smartest people who have ever lived trying to figure out how to organize society and going "IDK insanity defense is bad" is profoundly ill advised.
Yes screeching women on TikTok are making weird arguments but none of the actual knowledge holders or decisions makers are trying to excuse women from committing crimes because they are on their periods. This is a profound misunderstanding of the issue at hand.
You can get a serious, permanent mental illness (ex: schizophrenia) from menopause, you can kill someone because of that illness, and you can still be held criminally liable.
People are just pouncing on preexisting biases without any understanding of how this works.
Throwaway05
6hr ago
More broadly though, I think more people will see these supporters as the real societal problem that needs to be addressed.
Yeah toxic positivity, female in-group bias and her mentality as well as social media are really making a large slice of women into intellectual zombies. I'd hazard that lots of men have always been this way but they've tended to go into a variety of directions which limits social disruption. Since the current epidemic in women functions as a voting bloc it causes...problems.
Anti-social personality disorder is a common cause of crime and presents no protection from consequences of that crime.
The majority of crime is driven by mental illness but that does not mean it is accused. Just because you robbed the store to buy drugs doesn't mean you should get away with it.
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