Ponder
9mo ago
Far enough that it's true that you never really cared?
Maybe a better way to express my thought is: I had an idealized version of what having a girlfriend would look like and how it would change my life. That is what I cared about and wanted.
After getting a girlfriend and many subsequent post-breakup dating interactions I realized that girlfriends and romantic relationships look a lot different than what I had idealized. I no longer cared much about them after replacing my idealized version of these ideas with versions based on my experiences.
Another potential component of this is I sometimes want something (such as a job) because I think it will be greatly beneficial. If I can’t get it then I will fixate on how much better my life would be if I just had this one thing. Then once I finally get it I quickly stop caring very much about it because it didn’t have the benefit I was expecting.
Ponder
9mo ago
That makes sense.
I’ve had some short-term romantic relationships and they always ended up feeling like the effort I was putting in wasn’t worth it. I felt like I was in a constant audition for her attention and that I had to remain vigilant about everything I did around her so she wouldn’t lose interest and leave me for another man with more relationship experience. I felt there were a lot of things I couldn’t open up about because it would be perceived as a sign of weakness.
My mental model of romantic relationships is probably heavily influenced by those experiences. If all future relationships are going to be like the past ones then I would be happier by remaining single. However, maybe not all relationships would turn out like that. Maybe I could find my 99% match that is unlike the other women I have been in romantic relationships with. I have a hard time envisioning that a new relationship would be different from previous ones based on my observations when interacting with new women.
Ponder
9mo ago
I’m satisfied for now, but I think there is room for improvement. I don’t know exactly what these improvements would be, but two thoughts that come to mind are spiritual growth and being able to retire sooner.
Being single seems optimal for now. In the future as I age I could see how that version of me would prefer some type of romantic relationship if it was low maintenance and with a woman who had a very low interest in sex.
Ponder
9mo ago
I recently watched a film regarding male loneliness and aging. Specifically, the main character was a middle-aged janitor that did not appear to ever pursue, or have any successful, romantic relationships. The premise of the movie is that he was often in a state of fantasy and delusion. He was shy and never approached women. In his fantasy he was intelligent and younger and he met a girlfriend at a trivia event.
The movie was mostly told from the perspective of his fictional girlfriend. In the fantasy/delusion many things initially seemed like reality, yet the movie seemed very eerie. As the movie progressed details kept shifting in a way that wasn’t consistent with reality (the fictional girlfriend had different careers, the parents weren’t a consistent age). The fictional girlfriend would sometimes verbalize that she was confused about details of the relationship or the events that were occurring. At the end of the movie the main character realizes it is all a delusion and commits suicide.
My interpretation of the movie was that it was trying to show the pain of male loneliness and how the mind can cope through maladaptive interpretations of reality and how the mind eventually starts to unravel when reconciling fantasy to reality.
I have some autistic traits which cause me to struggle with romantic relationships and I can see how in my past this caused me to have a maladaptive interpretation of reality. I would often place far too much blame on women for being shallow, etc. instead of looking inwards. SSC helped me get a better grip on reality and made me realize that I needed to improve myself. I have made a lot of progress on social anxiety and I’m much better at talking to people.
While my self-improvement journey led to a significant reduction of social anxiety when talking to new people (including attractive women) some new thoughts came to light. I’m now starting to question whether these new thoughts are just delusion cope:
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I never really cared about getting a girlfriend, I just wanted social approval from my peers.
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My sex drive has been especially low since I reduced my social anxiety. I haven’t really cared much about sex since then.
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I don’t have a desire to try pursing a romantic relationship again because I enjoy alone time too much.
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Most relationships require a draining amount of social performance (autistic masking) and it just doesn’t feel like it is worth the effort anymore.
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My occasional social interactions are enough to satiate my social needs so I don’t need to seek deeper relationships.
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I have self-diagnosed Asperger’s Syndrome and that is why I struggle with social connections.
How do I tell if any of these thoughts are just lies that I’m telling myself? My original strategy was to externalize my failures by blaming women and society, etc. Maybe now I have internalized my failures in ways that aren’t true.
Ponder
9mo ago
I think it is unlikely that the Hock will lead you to a healthy and stable romantic relationship with a woman you desire. If the need for a romantic relationship remains unmet then I think whatever thought process that caused you to think the Hock is a solution will manifest again with other unorthodox approaches to your romantic struggles.
It is clear that you have written-off the traditional approaches to resolving your romantic struggles. If the Hock doesn't solve the issue, then I don't think the experience will cause you to revisit the traditional approaches that you have written-off.
Assuming you almost die, but ultimately survive, you will probably be much more likely to avoid considering doing dangerous things again. You could end up with PTSD. Maybe you will become more spiritual or something.
Just to make it clear I in no way endorse the Hock. The benefits are miniscule (or net negative), the risks are enormous, and there are many safer and potentially more effective approaches that you have failed to give serious consideration to.
Ponder
9mo ago
My real problem, I think, is that I don't have as much patience for others as I used to, because I feel on edge all the time.
I feel the same way. I have somewhat alleviated this by being more intentional about the environments/situations I put myself in. In things like men's circle, book clubs, and mental health support groups I have much more patience for people. It is probably due to some combination of me finding the discussions interesting, people being more open-minded, and/or being in situations where people can talk about more vulnerable things.
I guess you could dig deeper into what you like and dislike about certain environments, but I mostly rely on intuition. If I lose patience with people I'll just disengage with that specific environment and spend more time in one I like.
In an earlier attempt at therapy, the only actual unit of value was the advice to use deep, slow breathing as a quick antidote to anxiety (something something parasympathetic nervous system)
That technique, along with the parasympathetic nervous system, is explained in much greater detail here: https://www.lesswrong.com/posts/QnZRvud7fXfpdxBY3/againstness
I do think some level of fatherly Jordan-Peterson-style, "get yourself together, man, make something of yourself, you're better than this!" would be incredibly helpful and motivating.
Sometimes people need information on what they need to do. They need to look at their problems from an outsider's perspective to gain insight. However, once they have the necessary information then sometimes they need an outsider to provide motivation/accountability in order to follow through on something (for example: they know they need to eat healthier). If you need help following through on something there are other ways to get that without therapy.
Ponder
10mo ago
I think the catalyst for lower home prices is going to be rising unemployment rates. As the higher for longer interest rate strategy by the Fed plays out we could start to see increasing unemployment. This is because higher interest rates mean that less business endeavors are profitable so less employees are needed. Rising unemployment results in defaults/forced sales in a time where there are less people that can afford to buy homes.
I don't have any confidence in predicting if unemployment rates will significantly rise. The fed might pull off a soft landing and if that is the case there wouldn't be much of a catalyst for lower housing prices.
Ponder
10mo ago
My initial thought was to try IFS techniques to get a deeper understanding of your inner critics/exiles so that you can help repurpose them. However, I see you have already tried IFS.
Since you are not satisfied with the results of your sober techniques, I would gently point you toward considering psilocybin in a low to medium dose. It may open your mind to new ways of approaching your relationship to yourself. It can make new ways of thinking about yourself feel salient and "real" causing you to feel like you can actually change them when sober. After a single experience you may gain a deeper appreciation and insight into the sober practices that you have already tried. Specifically, you may feel more in touch with different "parts" of yourself and this will lead to increased success with IFS.
People sometimes say psilocybin (or other psychedelics) feel like years of therapy after a single dose.
In the lesswrong link they talk about MDMA and that seems like it could work too.
Ponder
11mo ago
Interesting, thanks for sharing.
I think a good data point for determining if despair is rising would be to look at attempted suicides.
I found a Polish study, it says (based on data from General Police Headquarters of Poland)
In the analyzed age group, an increase in the number of suicide attempts has been observed over a period of 20 years (Figure 1). During recent 5 years, the number has more than doubled—from 428 in 2014 to 905 in 2019
I haven't found good US data but I think this is an interesting angle to explore.
Ponder
11mo ago
I found https://www.samhsa.gov/data/nsduh/national-releases there is a number in each years report like this:
Among adults aged 18 or older in 2021, 22.8% (or 57.8 million people) had any mental illness (AMI) in the past year.
In 2021, 5.5% of adults aged 18 or older (or 14.1 million people) had serious mental illness (SMI) in the past year.
I think this will be a decent way to see the trend. It is self-reported but there would be some consistency due to some of the same respondents self-reporting over multiple years.
Ponder
11mo ago
Like, can't you just replicate the methodology, update the plots, and see if the trend continues?
Yes, but you need other data to give it context to determine mental health trends. For instance:
- Are attempted suicides also rising?
- Are non-lethal drug overdoses also rising?
- Are more people seeking mental healthcare?
For instance, you could have a situation where deaths of despair remain stable but attempted suicides are trending higher indicating that mental health is getting worse. You can't tell from just the deaths of despair data.
Ponder
11mo ago
I have a gut feeling that mental health is declining in the United States. How would I go about quantifying and gathering data that would provide evidence for/against my gut feeling?
The problem I'm running into is that I don't think the data I need is publicly available. I was thinking I should look at trends in things like:
- Deaths of despair (drug overdoses, suicides) - this is the easiest data point to gather
- Percent of population with a mental health diagnosis, with further breakouts by type of diagnosis
- Number of people currently seeing a mental healthcare provider (per capita)
- % of total population that ever saw a mental healthcare provider
- Waitlist times for new clients seeking a mental healthcare provider
- Percent of population not seeing a mental healthcare provider, but that indicate via survey that they have symptoms of a mental health disorder.
Ponder
11mo ago
I've also seen this done where there is a public group to initially recruit members and a private group that exists to invite selected members to. The public group can stay active but just not schedule any further events until there is a need to grow the private group again. The reason given for starting the private group can be something like I'm not comfortable with how big the public events have gotten and I need a mechanism to limit attendance.
Ponder
11mo ago
Running
I'd highly recommend joining a local running group. It will help with motivation and you may make some new friends.
Ponder
11mo ago
At US accounting firms in entry-level roles the challenging part isn't the technical competence. Many people could reasonably succeed at the entry-level jobs with just the knowledge from the Intro to Intermediate Accounting courses (or the self-study equivalent).
The real challenges (in the US) are:
- Managing the workload during busy season - Many people work very long hours for extended stretches of time.
- Not getting bored with the repetitive nature of accounting - Most accounting work involves doing the similar tasks over and over. It is like an assembly line for office workers - the actual things you are doing is easy, but it is struggle to stay motivated.
- People Skills - accountants have a reputation for not being good with people skills and they can often skate by with poor social skills if they stay in lower-level positions.
When someone says you are doing good at an accounting firm it usually means something more like: You are reliable and pleasant to work with. The main things that will get you negative feedback in accounting are: not putting in long hours like your peers, missing deadlines, or blatantly not following procedures.
Furthermore, accountants frequently burn out from the accounting firm lifestyle and end up in private industry or government. The busy season gets to be a bit much as you get older and have different priorities like family. Your coworkers want you to stick around because it makes their life easier when things get busy.
Ponder
11mo ago
In addition to the other suggestions, I would add facilitating a grief from death support group. One may already exist and you could just attend. Even though you aren't technically volunteering I think it still fits the spirit of volunteering because you are helping other people process their grief just by showing up and being supportive. I think rationalist-adjacent thinkers can often add a valuable perspective to support groups if they are also personally impacted by the issue.
People who have been revived from an opioid overdose with Narcan have survived a life and death struggle. They too have often made peace with their own mortality. The fact that they survived does not make them more attractive, instead it makes them less attractive. It signals that they do not exercise good judgment and are unable to find a healthier way to cope with the problems in their life.
I feel like surviving the Hock will not have the attractiveness increasing benefits you are predicting. Instead, people will question why you feel the need to engage in such risky behavior with such a minimal payoff. If they deduce that your participation in the Hock was due to your inability to find healthy solutions to the struggles in your life then they may question what crazy thing you will do next time you face a struggle.
Instead of the Hock you would get more benefit from the socially acceptable forms of extreme fitness like: Ironman, CrossFit, triathlons, etc. They have the added benefit of having existing social structures where people can help you train and provide motivation. Technically, they are life and death struggles since people have died while participating in them.
Ponder
11mo ago
What do you think about the idea that in order to be morally worthy of a romantic relationship, you need to be willing and able to endure great suffering either for the greater good, or for your tribe, or for no reason at all?
If convicted felons can have romantic relationships that clearly indicates that moral worthiness is not a requirement for all romantic relationships.
Sometimes in marriage you have to endure suffering "till death due us part", but that is a special case where you voluntarily are taking a romantic relationship to a higher level. Even then there are socially acceptable reasons to end the suffering via divorce.
Women do this through pregnancy and childbearing
Many women in relationships do not ever have children. Men still enter relationships with women who are past child-bearing age.
Every man, now, needs to choose their own struggle.
No. You just need to live a lifestyle and have a personality that a single woman finds attractive and worthy of a relationship, and you have to initiate communication and make her aware of your attractive traits. The idea that you have to endure great suffering will be off-putting to most women. Based on other posts of yours here are some suggestions of things you could focus on:
- Become a local activist on a subject you are passionate about. This will cause you to connect with like-minded people who will find your passion attractive.
- Become a local expert on something and start a group where you are the leader sharing your expertise.
- Join a mental health support group where talking about your struggles is seen as an admirable quality. Additional benefits include: getting advice/support from people that struggle with similar issues and gaining additional perspective that allows you to see your struggles as more tractable than what some of the other people in the group are facing.
Ponder
11mo ago
I don't have much experience with increasing energy but occasionally I'll take an extended/delayed release caffeine pill and that has been giving me a good energy boost for 8-12 hours.
If you have lower testosterone you could try something like Cistanche or Tongkat Ali. I dabbled around with them and I felt my testosterone change, but the noticeable effects were pretty subtle. It has been a while since I tried them but I recall a mild increase in energy.
Ponder
11mo ago
The most important guidelines about nootropics/supplements/vitamins are:
- People are unique and respond differently due to factors like genetics, diet, and age.
- Effects can very greatly based on dose and how often you take something. Some things you have to take multiple times for the effects to build up to a noticeable level.
You can't just copy someone else's stack. You need to know what it is that you're trying to achieve. Then it become trial and error with substances and doses to find what works best for you. Making one change at a time is the best way to identify what works for you.
Some goals you could have might be: more energy, things that aid workouts, immune support, pain management, mood, better sleep, libido, skin, etc.
If you have a specific goal in mind I might be able to give you some recommendations on things to try.
Ponder
11mo ago
When you say you want to "talk about special interests" my question is--why not find a group dedicated to those special interests? And--what are these interests? Are there SSC meetups in your area? What about board game stores that have open play tables and "game night" gatherings? Maybe a comic book store that does anime screenings or similar? These are all places you're likely to find fellow aspies, but also normies who are accustomed to interacting with aspies.
I'm looking for something more like a mental health support group that is limited to people that self-identify as autistic. I want to focus more on discussing the challenges of navigating society's allistic norms. A place to vent about the frustrations of daily life. I have found general mental health support groups (or sharing circles) somewhat helpful but I feel like those spaces would be much more helpful to me if they were limited to high-functioning autistic adults. Many times the allistic attendees are happy with platitudes and just want to feel the emotional support of the group. I am looking for a space that is more blunt and focused on evidence-based thinking. I want to be able to have deep conversations about the issues that impact autistic people.
When I read things here or on SSC I often become interested in them, so I don't necessarily want to focus just on my current special interests. I'm looking for a space where people would be interested in discussing random topics that they find interesting and this could perhaps cause other people to become interested in those topics. I don't want a space where people stick to the safe and popular topics (unless they are interested in discussing them in a deeper or unconventional way).
I'd like a space where I can interact with other humans without following the usual rules for interacting with other humans.
Yes, I'd like a space where people who are bad with body language are comfortable. Where the focus is on the information being communicated and not on the mannerisms of the speaker. Where people are more open-minded than usual. Where the norms of communication feel more comfortable to people on the spectrum. It is exhausting to always have to adapt to allistic norms and frustrating when I constantly fail due to giving off the wrong body language. Instead of autistic masking all the time I want to find a space that is limited to people who identify as autistic.
what is the final outcome you're looking for here?
I'm looking for aspie group therapy, but also a group that does more than that. Ideally, it would be a group that has group therapy sessions (or sharing circles) but also has other events like book clubs/discussion groups and social events.
Ponder
11mo ago
Do you want to find other self-identified high-functioning autists?
Yes, that is exactly what I'm looking for. People that identify that way and are able to successfully live independently without a parent/guardian.
The actual diagnosis is not important. I'm mostly looking for people who would be comfortable discussing the challenges they face navigating society's allistic norms. Also, the people I'm looking for would have some trouble with understanding/using body language.
He sounds like he would do well in a government job. The public school experience will help him stand out from other candidates. Many government jobs do not require specialized skills or much in the way of people skills.
Once you have a government job it is easy to advance in the government because the hiring process favors people with government specific experience. There are many types of government jobs so he should be able to find something that appeals to him (clerk, bus driver, parks maintenance, etc.). If there is a lot of competition for government jobs in his area there is always to option to start with a less competitive limited term employment opportunity and transfer to full time position later.
Many entry-level government jobs pay significantly higher than minimum wage and are easier and more flexible than minimum wage jobs. Additionally, many governments have pensions, longevity programs, and fringe benefits so people can do quite well through sheer diligence.
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