Belisarius
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User ID: 2663
I don't think you are wrong though but orthodox marxism can be overstated as part of all modern woke types and helps woke capitalists get away with it. I do agree that cultural marxism has expanded from class towards the cultural realm. We should just not underestimate Woke capitalists who are also for cultural marxism and moreover Cultural Marxism is compatible with some version of managed capitalism that accepts its ideology.
For example BLM, a black marxist group created by a Jewish marxist who was part of the weatherman underground group, managed to get enough capitalists to support its agenda to hire non whites over whites.
https://www.bloomberg.com/graphics/2023-black-lives-matter-equal-opportunity-corporate-diversity/ https://www.bloomberg.com/news/newsletters/2023-09-26/corporate-america-kept-its-promise-to-hire-more-people-of-color
So capitalists actually collaborated with a marxist group. Which is why you aren't wrong, it is just the issue that we shouldn't forget the cultural Marxists who also see their version of capitalism as helpful to their project.
There is a certain woke, pro capitalist in theory who opposes OG marxism, at least in theory but they still have the cultural marxist agenda. Of course, in reality they compromise with a movement which has included plenty of marxists among it. But this exists. The compromise with marxist organisations does undermine some of their anti marxist credentials.
Are these people cultural marxists? Of course, even someone who isn't orthodox marxist, can be a cultural marxism by applying the marxist logic without prioritizing class.
The activist groups and movements that rose in the 20th century in the USA especially are very important parts of it. But of course such movements had plenty of Marxists involved too. Cultural marxism does come from the original left and original marxism had those elements too, and that is why opponents of it also raised some of the same concerns.
Someone who is a marxist in general can be a cultural marxist too. There are plenty of those who also argue that redistribution in the cultural marxist arena is anti capitalist and a fulfillment of Marxism. Kendi IIRC is one of those types. This is indeed a very important element of it. But cultural Marxists are not about prioritizing the working class but primarily about favoring in western societies progressive identity groups like women, Jews, Blacks, migrants, Muslims, Indians, etc, and against right wing, white, conservative, nationalist, men. And also adopt the ideology of the diffusion of national, conservative, and gender roles and values of groups, especially of their outgroup.
Business owners can share this agenda and agree with it ideologically, and some do this also in part due to a profit motive. For example, they benefit from a system where the goverment pays for welfare, and support the importation of cheap labor. They can agree with the cultural marxist, and general marxist agenda of the idea of dissolution of gender roles, tradition, native nation, because they prefer so much so for women to work over being mothers, even if that would harm society and lead to unsustainable low fertility rates. Or they are part of the DEI industry and there is an obvious profit motive there.
There can also be a resistance to some elements of cultural marxism that partly has some economic leftist elements which show some nationalism, even though cultural marxism comes usually with an economically leftist redistributist package. There have been some leftists who opposed open borders and high numbers of migration on basis of prioritizing the well being of their own working class. Usually they did this while also expressing that they have solidarity with foreign working classes. More of the left pushed the opposite agenda and even most of those who opposed it have went along and changed their tune. Still this has existed.
Cultural revolution in favor of an economic model as the priority can coexist with both communists and people who want to promote their more capitalist economic system, although they too as we observe tend to be ideologically aligning with the idea of screwing "oppressor" groups in favor of "oppressed" and playing motte and bailey games between economy as only allowed concern for the outgroup and then accepting as legitimate concerns of the cultural marxist sort.
The idea of an utopia coming out of destroying the distinctions, or the actual nations, racial, property rights, classes, borders, religions, nuclear family, gender roles, usually with some groups and categorizations targeted as reactionaries than others can exist also among woke capitalists, who are cultural Marxists and have definitely been influenced by the intellectual legacy of Marxism and share elements with OG marxism. And I do agree that actual self identified Marxists have been influential in the cultural marxist movements.
Just adding some of the nuances of the issue, so we don't let woke capitalists get forgotten as part of the issue of Cultural Marxism.
As I addressed your point directly, it is blatantly and unquestionably true that Jews are beneficiaries of DEI policies and far leftists who are zionists are key part of the establishment and promote progressive stack that benefits the Jews. You insisting this isn't the case, doesn't change the fact that Jewish identity is promoted in colleges.
The Democrats are hardcore pro woke, and your attempt to cover up for the Jewish supremacist, woke types, is it self telling.
The reality is that a far leftist who is pro Jewish, hates right wingers, white people and Christians, like Jonathan Greenblat, is a core part of the cultural marxist coalition. This is a point you act as if it hadn't been made, because you want to deny it.
A great deal of Jews do this themselves and as part of their progressive ideology includes opposition to what they call antisemitism, in the same way biased racists in favor of blacks, or feminists complain about racism and misogyny. The Jewish lobby uses the cultural marxist oppressor, oppressed for the Jews benefit and for Israel and against right wingers and white Christians.
They are also willing to use such power against pro Palestinian leftists who include cultural marxists. But they are not the only cultural marxists, and are of less influence and significance today.
This idea that groups like ADL are irrelevant and far leftists who are also Jewish supremacists exist in only our fantasy, is a completely preposterous claim. You wanting to bypass such issues, including the congress adopting ridiculously broad definitions of antisemitism, is a case, of you not wanting to acknowledge this.
American Jews, as a pattern are happy to combine progressivism with Jewish identity politics, and so this extends beyond just the establishment.
This distortion of reality to paint groups like Jews as always marginalized is very much a characteristic of what makes cultural marxism such a damaging ideology. And it also extends beyond just the Democrats. There are instances of nominally claiming to be right wing parties have sided both in isolation and in combo with left wing identity politics, privilidging such groups at expense of their own base.
To the extend there has been a civil war among woke, the pro Jewish wokes have been winning, and you are both denying their existence while also being blatantly on their side.
You're not the only guy on this forum who doesn't like Jews.
This is the classic cultural marxist response. Dismissing the whole issue and framing it as people being just haters and the implication being unfairly picking up on such groups. Ironically, those who promote this perspective are those who are hateful and show a dislike towards other groups and towards people who make valid claims, because they are biased in favor of such groups and oppose objectivity. The whole issue is about people being biased in favor of Jews, and other groups and biased and hateful against say white Christians and right wingers, based on this.
It isn't incidentally about just people who belong in those groups AND also want to use, and might even believe it themselves, into the oppressor/oppressed dichotomy to their benefit, at expense of others, in the intersectional progressive direction. Lets not lose track, the problem extends also to those who don't belong to such groups and are supremacists for them. Even though those who belong are more prone to be part of this movement of cultural marxism.
This is the the same as with the blacks, women and other groups that are treated as beyond criticism. Well, with the women it is different, there isn't as big of a taboo, but there is still that same movement. The cultural marxists aren't fighting for the most part against unfair people who dislike women, blacks, but are themselves haters of white people, haters of men, haters of non Jews. They are also haters of people who make fair criticisms of those groups, and make fair criticisms of the cultural marxists. They hate people who talk about crime and don't lie about 13/55, because they prioritize their ideology, over valid problems. And because they don't respect that other groups have a legitimate case to oppose bad behavior of the groups they favor at their expense.
They are willing to support and cover for crimes, while pathologilizing those opposing them.
Lets just say, that people who talk about genuine problems like say, grooming gangs, have the moral highground over people trying to cover up such issues because it is "disliking"/ism Pakistanis. Same, with the problem of authoritarianism and racist preference for such groups. Or a foreign country being prioritized, and those opposing it subject to cancel culture, vile attacks, and targeted by the Jewish lobby.
Bigotry in favor of Jews, Blacks, women, Muslims (when it comes to them being put above white Christians) etc, is a very key component of cultural Marxism.
It is one that is based on false, exaggerated accusation and insinuations of ism, and phobias, to cover its own agenda to benefit those groups at expense of the right wing outgroup, to shut down reality, and to cover up actual crimes and parasitical behavior.
What kind of single unifying culture you favor promoting here? As an outsider looking in, It makes sense for the USA to promote a unifying culture and also to stop undermining the white American historical nation and part of its unifying culture to be about the continuous American nation. I.E. White Anglo Americanism. While the story of USA will include also black experience but with much less grievances, and sure there is some room for the story of other groups. A multiethnic country which is what the USA is today, can promote a unifying culture, but will also have to promote. And plenty of grey lines on such issues, but your trajectory is not a good idea, and leads to the destruction of American culture, and towards a post-American culture.
Which is not my culture, nor my people, except in a more supra-national way, although it does benefit my people for "genocide the native people and put a lipstipc on a pig" to not be a fashionable ideology. But I object against this cultural revolution from a moralist universalist perspective too. I am not suggesting, anywhere that USA should promote other languages than English.
Saying you favor unified culture is an easy slogan, but black Americans have their own different ethnic community. They speak English. What are you going to do about it? Are you trying to force different ethnic communities in the USA to abandon any of their characteristics. You ought to target especially groups like black Americans or Jews, or Indians who are especially ethnocentric.
- It was the same with unification of various countries in Europe— the French promoted Frenchness, the British promoted Britishness, the Russians promoted Russian culture. Peter the Great was not Marxist by any stretch of the imagination. He was a Russian Czar promoting the culture of Russia.
There is no Frenchness without the French. Look, you had the opportunity to address mass migration, and you didn't. And now it seems you support displacing Americans while painting this as promoting Americanism.
I think as far as people suddenly becoming “strangers in their own land”, again, this isn’t some weird new idea that nobody ever thought about until Marx came along. There have always been subcultures and ethnic groups on the outs in any given society. It’s how a unified culture tends to work, you go along with the culture or you are at least somewhat on the outside. I and my near kin would be on the outs in lots of cultures.
People becoming strangers in their own land is the local culture and people becoming replaced. And when this happens, those doing the replacement cheer for colonizing it, including the left and fake right, who ideologically favor the native people being disminished and support cultural genocide and advocate for a culture that does not carry the heritage of the past, that has its statues replaced, schools renamed, etc.
You trying to support this as nationalism is just a complete failure to address this issue, and subversive. It basically denies what is happening because it supports it.
Also important to note that actual highly hostile cultural marxists have promoted rhetoric trying to spin cultural replacement and mass migration as something else than it is because they genuinely believed that by lying about this, they will get their way to destroy their ethnic outgroup. So they promoted dishonestly the narrative of opposing identity, while the end result was their focus was on what was destructive on their right wing outgroup identities, while enabling the progressive favored groups like Jews, Indians, migrants. Because the current trajectory is of certain people being replaced, hated and discriminated and that isn't a case of regional cultures of a nation, converging, but of the destruction of European people. Your approach is just to compromise with this and spin it as otherwise.
In regards to whether you are a cultural marxist hiding your power level, I am not saying you have that goal, and I am not saying you don't. Cultural marxism works not by only the people who promote directly racism in the left wing direction, but also people who undermine opposition to it, by promoting the acid of destruction of identities. Most cultural marxists do both and pretend they are just opposing racism, because they see as racist for their right wing outgroups to have things for themselves, being exclusive.
As for the rest, in addition to those doing so deliberately, some, because of the pressure of political corectnest which is key element of cultural marxist, address their message towards those who are less ethnocentric, and are getting screwed over because of it.
The end result of mass migration and the culture of Americans being on the out, is the promotion of a different culture, of the outsiders who replace Americans, and those of native stock who are ideologically anti-American. The unifying culture you favor is not going to be an American culture, but a new Soviet man, that is about a shared ideological vision. And even that is not going to happen, because the cultural destruction you favor, and try to spin as nationalism as usual, has as part of its dna the hostility against the ative people.
I have challenged you and others repeatedly. Look, to have equality under the law, you need to crash organizations like ADL, and to change the mentality extremely pervasive among countless fanatics, even more so of those communities, that "Jews are wonderful, and disagreement is antisemitism", Blacks are wonderful and disagreement is racism, women are wonderful and disagreement, is misogyny, etc. One needs to be critical of mgirants and of thse groups and of even people who don't belong in these groups, who have that mentality.
Generalities about equality under the law mean nothing, because you can have a lopsided system that pretends to be doing equality under the law, while pretending that groups like Indians and Jews are oppressed, while their system benefits them at the expense of others. We need substance that names names, and is specific about the coalition and how it would deal with groups like the ADL and similiar.
Because else, people who want to promote a generality that in the substance is not going to be what it claims, are going to just do that.
I think as far as people suddenly becoming “strangers in their own land”, again, this isn’t some weird new idea that nobody ever thought about until Marx came along.
The followers of Marx are the people who want to destroy reactionary people like white Americans and are promoting the idea of destroying nations while also respecting more certain nations than others. You are reversing things here and promoting a false analogy between the creation of a nation from regional cultures, to being replaced and not having a homeland.
This is incredibly radical and destructive agenda of cultural revolution. It does have historical paralels but it is of people who have been conquered by a foreign tribe, and subject to the humiliations related to that.
It actually is a key part of the far left tradition to take something and then double down to the extreme, without considering that doubling down takes something that mgiht work in one case, but be destructive in another one. In this case, nationalism reducing some regional differences which it self has its own costs, to then "destroy nations" agenda.
In the American context, the people promoting this have, as a pattern basically constantly concern trolled white Americans, with extreme intolerance, while playing dumb and tolerating far worse behavior by other ethnic communities and migrants.
Rebranding destroying ethnic communities as nationalism doesn't make it nationalism. Which is about ethnic groups which share blood, language, historical tradition and have a common conciousness.
Note, that this isn't a defense of all ethnic groups who migrated in the USA retaining their own language, tradition. Of course, I am in favor of both limited migration and migrants trying to assimiliate, which is destroyng part of their ethnic identity, at least them deprioritising the rights, but also affirming and replacing it with the native identity in part. The reason, being that a nation has a right to its own existence, and migrants are coming to either be adopted into it, or at least to coexist with it, if in small numbers. It is of course a significant harm to a nation to be replaced by foreigners. A world of people who have homelands, and they don't try to destroy others homes, and even there are some minority ethnic communities doing their own thing, but with the trend where there is migration towards assimilation and of limited numbers of foreigners being allowed to migrate, is a better working model.
This "destroy nations" idea, that is related with hardcore authoritarianism and its adherents have also commited attrocities against those who would oppose it, and ethnic communities for refusing to abandon their identity, and become new soviet men is just a bad idea that leads to inevitable disaster and a key part of the cultural marxist dna. That promoters of this idea don't want to consider the consequences of enforcing this, doesn't make them irrelevant. We know the consequences.
However sincere some adherents of this bad idea might be, they have lost to those who promote it to screw the right wing outgroup. It is used to concern troll white people which explains why its adherents are often not concerned about say banning the ADL or NAACP. Because they are comfortable with a status quo that enforces authoritarianism that doesn't allow pro white identity politics and tolerates and promotes the identity politics of such groups. And spinning this status quo as non woke (especially among cultural marxists who oppose the more mask out cultural marxist elements).
The agenda of destroying ethnic communities and opposing conservative identities and dinstiction is a vehicle for the cultural marxists who promote it to harm "reactionary" nations under their belief and agenda that all groups are equal, but some groups are more equal than others.
It is working in terms of what enough of the establishment supports and actionable wins through censorship, support of powerful figures in congress, cancel culture. Much of the American establishment is etrmely woke, and quite pro Jewish, and pro Jewish authoritarian at that.
Woke inc, and liberal establishment is Jewish supremacist. Not just them, you have congress adopting very extreme and one sided definitions of antisemitism. The facts are such that it isn't really a speculative issue.
That in a poll, young people consider Jews oppressors, the same young people consider white people to be oppressors to a higher percentage, doesn't negate this. Indeed, there are Muslims who hate Jews and are also cultural marxists and support for the most part the intersectiona alliance.
Such issues at best makes the situation somewhat more nuanced, but Jews are not just a core component of the present progressive supremacist/cultural marxist agenda, but have been extremely important from the start. The Black/Jewish alliance, the Jewish grievance in its own right being cultural marxism oppressor, oppressed, and the Jewish role in these movements from the very begining as they developed in 20th century. Which it self was an evolution, or devolution if you prefer of previous movements, but which have gotten their particular development in 20th century in important part due to Jewish contributions.
The reality is that you show an obvious bias and want to potray Jews as oppressed, even when they are wildly overepresented and it is taboo to note and oppose this.
You even use that poll to also promote this idea of Jews as oppressed, neglecting the favoritism in their favor, and also how their white Christian outgroup interests and rights are denied on the basis that they threaten Jews and they are antisemitic.
Nor should we forget the fact that Jews are at about 70% supporting the Democrats (which are very much pro Israel) and the left. This is a very liberal group which ideologically agrees with cultural marxism and wants Jews to benefit from it in the oppressed/oppressor dichotomy. Considering how compromised non liberals have been with the excess of liberalism, that doesn't mean the rest are moderate. American Jews are polled even lower than black Americans, at only 30% to support the preservation of European civilization in the USA, so in certain ways they poll more to the left, and more hostile to European Americans, than even black Americans.
Rejecting the logic that Jews are oppressed and right wingers, and white Christians are the oppressors and the later have no right to support their own nations, and oppose Jews when they disrespect them, would be a way of escaping the cultural marxist logic on this issue.
Cultural marxist Jewish grievances are a part of an intersectional alliance, today. If tomorrow, this alliance completely breaks over, I doubt the Jewish grievances against the common oppressor would be gone, as its own faction but it would be at least an interesting development to see civil war among the cultural marxists. It hasn't happened yet, but there are some weak elements of conflict today.
It is possible for groups of such alliance to promote grievances against other intersectional groups too. When there is infighting among cultural marxists, the wrong thing to do is to side with one group, and reinforce their narrative of oppression that they use against their common enemy.
Well, you are kind of promoting a version of a new soviet man here but I will agree that you aren't promoting privileging progressive identity groups and in fact oppose that. However what you are promoting had been part of the playbook of the cultural marxist arrangement even if you oppose the preferential treatment.
Problem is that, it might in fact be detrimental for society for women to prioritise education and work over being mothers. It is a bad value, to not care about that a Just because you are dogmatic about opposing that, doesn't make it a good idea. This isn't to say that there isn't value in various facets of equal treatment. For example if a foreign tourist is attacked by a native drunk driver, you punish the native drunk driver equally as if they harmed anyone else. Even in gender roles, there is a difference between being dogmatic here in favor of not taking such issues into consideration, and trying to maximize differences in the labor market.
We should care about important things more than just treating everyone equally. And that is different from avoiding parasitical arangements. It isn't a bad idea that should be restricted because we follow some marxist dogma of equality under the law, to give parents for example incentives to have children and benefit them by giving them tax breaks.
Not caring if your nation is taken by other nations, destroys your ethnic community and historical legacy and is an example of indifference to cultural and ethnic destruction.
Just because you claim is irrelevant, in a situation where it is stigmatized precisely by much of this faction, to be ist, doesn't make it irelevant for people to become foreigners in their own land. Humans are collective group, and even as individual are prefferably not to suffer the misfortunte of their own nation, being harmed, replaced, them becoming a minority in their own land and foreigners.
It neglects something important and makes what you want of no prefferential treatment, a complete impossibility as you will be outnumbered by groups who come here to get resources from you, and lord over you, and not only take preferential treatment, but also disminish the native culture both by ridicule, and replacement invited by people who share their bias and want their vote.
Plus, the fact that groups carry within themselves this kind of grievances makes this whole idea of an even handed law an impossibility, if the system plays dumb about this fact. People who favor their own group and want to screw over the native ethnic group are going to get their way, unless the system can name names. You haven't done that, so how are you going to stop a system that privilidges groups the Jews, Indians, when you argue that they are going to be targeted?
The reality is that a country that doesn't have the courage to stand for its own people, and compromises by claiming to want new soviet man type of ideology which is already the bailey of cultural Marxism, is not going to stop preferential treatment for groups progressives favor.
I agree with most of your post but disagree that the way forward is for the law to not recognize race, etc.
These are relevant. You can’t have a country by not recognizing that it belongs to a particular people or in the harder arrangement of a multiethnic country, peoples.
Cultural Marxism uses as part of its toolset the idea that evil forces create this idea of race, gender and other dinstictions.
It is the ideology that says you can't discriminate against women and men should include women in their organisations. And then demands female exclusive organisations. You don't do the later, but the first has been an important component of it.
Trying to not see race, religion, gender leads to that and becomes oppressive in its own right. What are you going to do about people who do see race, religion, gender, or ethnicity? Do you genuinely have the stomach to go against Jews or Indians who do that and force them to not see ethnicity, or race? Because what I have seen is that in practice this doctrine ends up with double standards and tolerating highly tribal groups like Indians and Jews. The later which have obvious powerful NGOs in their favor, which makes the whole idea of the law not favoring race, contradictory with seeing them as oppressed by this arrangement. It would require the law to crush those organizations and to pressure very woke demographics like Indians and Jews to change their behavior. It is actually a good thing and not oppressive for women and men to have male and female exclusive groups.
Maybe it would be a good idea if in the labor market we saw more gender, and we encouraged women to take more the nurturing role. To be fair, the fact that this is more, and not entirely, is itself a compromise to the direction of what you say. But I wouldn't consider what I advocate to be cultual marxist, even though it isn't 100% the opposite. It rejects the idea of leveling the differences as a goal, and considers it stupid and destructive.
Having people prioritize their family first, is not inherently exploitative, so long they don't act in a parasitical manner against other families. In fact it is laudible to care for your people and work to plant trees that your descendads will enjoy. An atomising antisocial, every man for himself sentiment would be worse. Why shouldn't male only organizations exist as they used to.
The problem with cultural marxism, isn't that they see race, but that they are very biased and parasitical in favor of their ingroup, and destructive and don't respect the value of nations, families, and many more for their outgroup by using the motte and bailey of "it is bad in general" and then tolerating it and supporting it for the ingroup under the idea that we will not see race only when white supremacy is defeated.
This is a bit nuanced because people who are a little ideologically divergent but part of the same team because they are more blatant tribalists do exist with people who might buy more into the universalist anti-traditional identities framework.
Another element of nuance, is that there is SOME room for opposition to maximalist identity essentialism of the conservative sort, and in general. What i find to work best, is basically a wise mixture, that definitely is completely against these mentality that we reach utopia by destroying distinctions, that has been used to retain dinstictions that favor progressive in group and desttroy other ones, some very necessary for well functioning of society. Where heterornomativism or native ethnic identity are undermined under anti-identitarian claim, while LGBTQ or foreign nationalism is promoted.
A good society will be heteronormative and would see the distinction and prefer promoting straight behaviors.
But in line with the idea that some liberalism might be tolerable and compatible with promoting better ends, it shouldn't imprison homosexuals for example. And there are gray areas that are up to debate, even if the level of social liberalism and the bias that cultural marxism has for its favorite identities and against its hated identities, some core to society, is wrong.
To further elaborate on an example: if women take sufficiently the nurturing role, they lose job opportunities, but they gain a greater connection with their children, are more likely to have them and earlier, and enjoy from that. Society also benefits from having enough children to replace it self, something very basic.
This isn't an exploitative arrangement when considering the benefits both for those involved but for society in general, and requires seeing characteristics and their relevance. However, it is possible as I argued for objections to be made against a certain too conservative arrangement, and not be unwarranted, (like the fantasy of the Handmaiden tale) but we are in the situation were it is excessive social liberalism and bias in favor of those identities and disregards of favorite identities that is the primary issue.
Do I have a solution that is simple, yes and no. I think on some areas you should see such distinctions, in others you should see it, but as part of other important things and not the priority.
Same with family. I am going to listen to a foreign scientist who is working in a manner that shows competence, and proffessionalism. But I wouldn't let him take over my country.
Ethnicity, race, property, family, all these are important. I work to provide an inheritance for my family, not for foreigners who are equally smart to my children, to enjoy the efforts of my labor.
Not the only things important, I believe it is important to recognize the importance of such issues to other groups too, and is part of international justice. And wealth, good interpersonal relationships (both weal and such relationships actually necessitates taking the other categories into consideration because foreign groups will screw you over if you have no ethnocentrism), learning from foreigners, and more also have their own importance.
Having borders, nations, gender roles, is different than trying to colonize and destroy a hated ethnic group, while replacing their historical figures, and forcing them to hate themselves and demonizing any positive identity as evil.
Part of its destruction is the disrespect of valuable nuclear families, ethnic communities, the masculine role in society, the disrespect of the value of pro natalism, of society being mainly heteronormative (whcih is superior than a society that have incrased homosexual behavior). Anti-conservatism is part of the tool set for breaking up the bonds of the outgroup, and not allowing them to be a healthy united nation that would oppose parasitism at its expense. That this is an unworkable arrangement matters, and is an additional problem of cultural marxism.
The opposite, among those who play oppression games, Jews, who are a key progressive associated group and strongly as a pattern, especially the most influential Jews supporters of cultural marxism might even be the champions of being oppressed and deserving superior treatment because of this.
In the latest year the powerful jewish organisations, and stakeholders have been pushing the mighty and powerful to intimitate opposition and to promote an one sided story of Jews being oppressed in the American congress.
You are doing the thing that is the epitome of cultural marxism, of acting as the group you favor is always oppressed, regardless of all the power and fanatics biased in favoring them and screwing over others. Lets just say that SJW/cultural marxists in favor of Jews are some of the worst and more influential ones but there are definetly some who disfavor Jews in favor of Muslims and others who want to keep both groups not hate each other too much and favor both sides cooling off that hostility, but still support the ADL and friends narrative about antisemitism.
Based on what I explained above, your perspective fits cultural marxism for being so incredibly biased in favor of Jews that you promote the idea of Jews as oppressed, a 50 Stalin type of statement. Of course Jews are benefiting and remain a core part of far left progressive supremacist alliance. And core participants of the game "I oppose identity politics.. but actually for my outgroup". And in general the meme of antisemitism, is precisely a part of the cultural marxist idea of promoting justice by favoring this oppressed group that is under threat of being victimized and oppressing the oppressors.
As per my definition of cultural marxism, a bias, a lack of objectivity, and a permanent dogmatic mentality in favor of such groups is an important component and this applies towards Jews. Also important to note, it is not incompatible with being a jewish chauvinist who uses right wing language in terms of Israel, or even identifies as a Jewish supremacist, and being a cultural marxist. The cultural marxist faction is more pro zionist than has anti zionists. The who/whom is more important to cultural marxism, than any consistency.
To be very clear here, I am not going to pretend that cultural marxists are correct, and aren't biased, and such issues are a mystery. Nor will pretend that core groups of their alliance, probably the most important one, are somehow oppressed by them. It is simply a reversal of reality where black Americans and Jews are oppressed by the system. The Cancel culture contrarilly favors them. This is the reversal of reality that is Cultural Marxism 101.
It is also true that Jewish reputation has deservingly suffered in the current circumstances, and sure some people who dislike them might also be part of the intersectional alliance and might oppose them because they are Muslim chauvinists.
The predominantly right wing environments is wrong and there is an inaccuracy in "marginalized communities". We should select a description that is less biased in favor of the cultural marxist lingo.
Cultural Marxists are very willing to keep pandering to the same favorite groups, if they aren't marginalized and if the hierarchy favors them. The narrative is one of marginalized communities and right wing heirarchy, but you can, and in fact it is the increasing model, of increasing cultural marxism with the communities not being marginalized. If they marginalize disfavored groups, you will not see the kind of people called cultural marxists, reversing cause.
If a space becomes less diverse, by becoming more black, and less white, you won't sdee them complain.
In fact, your definition seems to accept the assumptions of cultural marxists.
I would say that cultural marxists are those who are biased in favor of progressive favored groups, of intersectional alliance, such as blacks, Jews, women, LGBT, and more, are identitarians in favor of such groups, on the basis of deeming them oppressed, and favor the destruction, or disminishment, with especially hostile against whites, and are also hostile against men, straight, etc, treating an environment that favors them, or is even even handed, as inherently oppressive and an example of the crisis of misogyny, antisemitism, racism (agaisnt blacks). It is about those who are dogmatic and see as heroic favoring such groups and a reforms in that direction.
It is about the presumption of ism being against those groups. So your quoted definition is great if one says that a cultural marxism is someone who makes that presumption. But inaccurate, if you use that definition on face value.
Where there is some difference between more naked tribalism, although I consider cultural marxism, to be fairly seen as progressive supremacist, and supremacist movement of supremacists for those groups and against their outgroup is that there is an argument that promotes disingenius one sided critique and promotes a motte of against identity politics, inequalities. Then they change it, to favor superior treatment for their favorite groups.
Some do this while arguing for the destruction of their outgroup, and painting them as nazi evil threat for opposing their own self destruction.
Another element, is the utopian dream that after destroying their white, or heteronormative, or any combination of identities they are against, they will reach an utopian without racism, or oppression. There is a certain egalitarian pretense, or belief at least with some of the less well off groups. But cultural Marxism is not sincerely egalitarian.
The most pervasive cultural marxist ideology is on areas of ethnicity and race in the USA. Elsewhere it is more complciated.
It is the people who see men rights activism, white nationalism, transphobia, homophobia, etc, etc as a great evil and are incapable of seeing whether a certain level of rights and interests for men, whites, straights, etc, and moves that can limit and go against a certain level of rights they favor for such groups. Basically they don't care for any compromise with the interests and rights, of those groups and with the right wing opposition who identify with such interests.
There is also continuity with historical marxism that shared cultural marxist elements, even if in weaker proportion and had in it an element of destroying the family, or nation, and also had these kind of biased tribalists among its ranks. Even if this element was a weaker part of it. Modern actual marxists have often adopted cultural marxist beliefs or be even more hardcore for them.
Calling liberals with the title cultural marxists would be a fair, and accurate description and not at all uncharitable. They are just going to be displeased about this, because they want to potray themselves as moderates and their opposition as extremists. And obviously they are very willing to censor and fight to not let us have an accurate picture of this. And other groups like most leftists who don't self describe as liberals agree with cultural marxism but might disagree with liberals on some things, fake conservatives who share this bias and hostility. Some fake conservatives are actually especially cultural marxists in their rhetoric, who are basically the version of cultural marxism that tries to be more consistent with the motte but still fails to be consistent and still is biased in favor of progressive identity groups and tolerates them in the manner that doesn't right wing ones.
A cultural leftist is in fact a cultural marxist. Cultural leftism cannot be seperated with cultural marxism. Marxism is central to leftism. Modern liberalism is cultural marxism. And it is very pervasive. We live in very cultural far left times.
There are elements associated with liberalism that aren't cultural marxism, that some right wing edgy figures might not like, although modern liberalism and really historical liberalism has its own blame which gave ground to socialism also failed to be consistent with those and isn't fair to give it ownership of those exclsusively. Especially when they undermined say natural rights. For example, lets take human rights. Cultural marxists rely on their interpretation of human rights, but it is possible to have one that isn't cultural marxist and still value human rights, and even despise cultural marxists for the harm they do towards genuine human rights, by promoting fake ones.
Their rhetoric is less important, the most important element of cultural marxism is the bias in favor of the identities they favor, the bias against the identity they disfavor, their complete disregard of the rights and interests of those groups and how they prioritise their dogma in favor of reducing nations, (which they aren't consistent about and target particularly their outgroup nations and make exception for their ingroup nations), gender roles, masculine and female duties and obligation, in a manner that is destructive to society.
However, while cultural marxism is an illegitimate, ironically it is a very ist ideology that distorts the situation, it is possible in a limited way and not the limitless maximalist way cultural marxists push, in certain circumstances, for some of the groups cultural marxists, are biased in favor, to be mistreated. Currently it is the opposite problem at play, because of the influence of cultural Marxists.
Wokeness can also be used to describe it. Or really identify it as the new left ideology which grew from important elements of the old left.
There is an interesting question about whether someone who isn't a cultural marxist in some other areas but is a super hardcore SJW type behaving individual when it comes to one of those groups, and shares the core ethnic enemy of the progressive intersectionally, most notably and usually in my experience of American online discourse, is for the Jews, but one sees it with Muslims who are tribalist for themselves, carry those grievances and share the enemy, but don't like Jews. Are they part of cultural marxism? Mostly yes. Ideological purity is less important than the fact that they are part of the intersectional team and have the same enemy.
There are also people who are part of the intersectional alliance, who are more sadistic, hateful, openly tribalist, and don't buy into this idea that they are fighting against oppression, even if cynically they might pretend to do so. They know that by not tolerating identity politics of the outgroup, they are harming it and creating a caste that favors them and they like that. That they belong in the same team and are even more hardcore in harming the out group, is more important than whether they buy into the idea, that they are fighting "oppression".
Finally, just cause some cultural marxists who agree that it is morally superior to favor the groups they favor and to disfavor the groups they disfavor, disagree with the rhetoric of other more edgy cultural Marxists, or with how far they push some things, doesn't make the first to belong in a different faction. Especially if the first are putting on a mask and pretending to be against nobody, while the later are saying the quiet thing loud. Like compare Noel Ignatiev, or people cheering that X European country will no longer exist and they are colonizing it, with someone who shares Noel Ignatiev position that opposing this is white supremacy, but uses weaker rhetoric.
At the end of the day compromising with right wing identitarians and giving extreme far righters too, what they want on the issue of their own people and favorite groups not being screwed over, is the obvious limited requirement for someone to not be a cultural marxist. If you are unwilling not to screw over white people, or men, or other groups that are disfavored by progressive paradigm, and you deny the legitimacy of their collective rights, then that qualifies as cultural Marxism, especially if you see such compromise as giving nazis what they want.
So is about a bias for progressive identities, and against disfavored groups, especially favoring destruction of those. People not compromising with the legitimate rights and interests and therefore sharing ground with negatively symbolized right wing associated groups and advocates. Another element is whether those with such biases are unwilling to consider whether their dogma wrecks society.
There is a huge connection between excessive social liberalism in general and cultural Marxism, and again being sufficiently conservative is a requirement to be a moderate, and not be a cultural marxist. Because cultural Marxism, excessive social liberalism includes in its agenda, breaking down important identities and roles and responsibilities that help keep society working (even though cultural Marxism has double standards and the bias of cultural Marxists is the most important element of it).
People just want to both be excessive on the left on such areas, (including people who choose to claim that they are conservatives and conservatives must compromise more to appeal to women, and insert ethnic group and LGBT types) and to have the fame of the even handed moderate, or of the conservative.
Liberalism and much of leftism does not work in isolation as a goal to strive upon, but in combination with conservatism, and must exist in a limited manner. Same with the interests of the groups cultural Marxists favor, and limiting the rights and interests of the groups they disfavor. Cultural Marxism is very extreme on the later, acting as if their rights and interest are inherently illegitimate, under the false pretense, that identity politics and interests are illegitimacy Sympathy for other groups must be balanced with concentric circles of concern, and objectivity. The idea of constantly progressing and moving in a more left wing direction that lead to Cultural Marxism is like swallowing ten packages of panadol to get rid of a headache, because in a limited quantity it would help with a genuine problem.
Not that ambitious but it isn't a bad idea to help blue collar workers. However, a greater focus must be on the goverment,NGO,cheap labor/welfare complex.
Where NGOs funded by the goverment who marched in the goverment and where likeminded ideologues have influence, promote mass migration for antiwhite and for economic corruption, parasitism reasons.
These NGOs are funded by the goverment and also get funds to give to groups like the Haitians.
Then a company hires them at very low wages because they are subsidized by the American tax payer. And these people then or smarter ones like Indian migrants, beneefit from racial discrimination policies in their favor that the goverment and corporate America follows.
While the general governance and media environment enables it, which isn't surprising when ADL brags about how it trains all FBI agents.
But in addition to ideology, there are people who make money from this at expense of society and are part of a woke industry.
The private public parternship model, is a model of creating a woke corrupt society of massive theft of wealth, to those implementing this system and part of the industry and the favored client groups at expense of the native people.
Dissolving those NGOs, supposed "charities" and prosecuting them for this, and firing those from the bureaucracy who are aligned with this will help blue collar American workers more and will also as a bonus reduce the debt. And of course, fines, prosecution of people enforcing DEI, and investigating institutions, to stop them from doing so. A facet of DEI programs is also preferring newer migrants over native Americans. Really, doing this is less of pandering towards the base, and more enforcing the law and the greater good, and the duty of any leader.
Indeed, give zero welfare to foreigners (an idea might be to make it a requirement of having two grandparents born in the country to be eligible to welfare) and companies no longer benefit by having the American taxpayer pay the economic externialities of cheap labor. This will result in increase of automation in some industries. Deportations which Trump advocates can be part of this and can expand to greater categories that came where they shouldn't have, and their prescence has been of a mixture of ideological anti native mass migration agenda, and corruption of the networks I mentioned. Or not exclusive enough categories like with some family reunification policies. Sure there can be some debate on this, but mass migration promoted by oikophobes and such networks is not sacred. Like they can bring people, the same people can be send back in their own homelands.
Net Migration should be net negative for quite a while, with more people being repatriated than coming in. All of the above will help raise the wages of labor and benefit workers, and also promote their national, cultural interest to live in their own communities, not as threatened second class alienated minority in their own homeland, nor suffer under crime increases. Moreover it will help bring closer the migrants will remain with the native people, under an understanding that the social contract of migrants includes respecting the native people and their collective interests as a group, which is also the interests of each individual of said group. It will also incentivize and must come along with pro family formation policies, but the content of those are for other discussions.
It will also counter the effect that you mentioned of a Democrat permanent majority which is pandering to foreigners voting for far left policies to increasingly redistribute resources, and positions in their favor.
The above suggestions will both help blue collar workers in various ways, improve economic efficiency by stopping DEI and their institutional enforcers and general supporters, and also reduce the deficit.
Moreover, since it will help more than blue collar workers, and is a more ambitious proposal that have clear winners and losers, (and the losers already oppose the right), it will more greatly incentivize the winners to support the right, because they will be afraid of this not continuing and things reversing. The Democrats more aggressive moves while republicans either in a combo a) compromised and collaborated while pretending to oppose it b) some opposed it but not with enough fervor c) others neither collaborated nor opposed it, helped the Democrats electorally.
Removing the enforcers of oikophobic ideology progressive intersectionality from power, will improve enthusiasm for policies in opposition to corrupt, oikophobic, anti-white policy, some of which involves plausibly crimes. It will remove the fear of presumption of guilt of the opposition, and impose a fear of guilt towards the oikophobes. Which is right, because the agenda to replace a people by having the goverment steal from them, preffer the foreigner, to make the native people a hated minority is genuinely an immoral destructive policy that could be fairly be described in worse terms than that. What is politically correct and politically incorrect can change and it will be the biggest benefit electorally for the right and its base to focus on doing this. Add to that those who will be deported and stop coming who tend to support those oikophobic policies in their favor. So if the republicans follow my suggestions, it would result in a greater % of the public supporting the republican party. Albeit, some of the suggestions will inspire greater backlash and can come or while changing the oikophobic environment while in power. Opposing the NGO-public-private partnership woke capitalism, pro mass migration, pro DIE, complex, can be pushed hard from day one and will help Trump get elected, in addition to the message he is promoting now in favor of deportations.
Modern states have more than enough the state capacity to do this. Even Muslim countries deport large numbers of foreigners that share their religion. https://www.yahoo.com/news/iran-deport-two-million-afghans-155252446.html?guccounter=1
This
"I for one welcome abandoning anything remotely conservative” and “I must be the most belligerent man to walk the face of earth if I want to be based”,
is just blatantly uncharitable.
And it isn't nice from your behalf to be calling right wingers who aren't abandoning anything remotely conservative being the most bellgerent men to walk the face of the earth, and so what you demand as right wingers to behave like, comes off as an attempt to control them.
The rationalist crowd is not substantially different from the Romney who was a BLM supporter, uniparty perspective. Nor are they, and associated figures like Hanania, and Yglesias above and beyond behaving rather uncivilly. There are people who fail to be nice honest and objective.
The reality is that liberals, including those who have been annoyed by some of the bad behavior of their side start from a conclusion that condemns the right, because they are against it an d want to control it. At such, the right will never be good enough.
In terms of the right, it isn't true that there isn't space in between. Rather what is happening is an inability and unwillingness to render to Ceasar what is Ceasar's and to admit the legitimate and good points made by rightists, because they are inherently against the points and the people making them.
Never will any political coalition even on the issues they are mostly correct on, will not avoid in focusing on areas that are more doubtful too, when making their points. Part of treating political discourse accurately would then be to not miss the forest of the trees, and prioritise things accurately.
This tweet makes some good points on this issue:
https://x.com/hpmcd1/status/1834339581220606449
My honest answer to this, which I hear a lot (not picking on Jesse), is that Trump bullshits—he exaggerates, or garbles details of, things that are basically true, and tends to “lie” mostly when it concerns his personal honor (crowd size, sleeping with the porn star, etc)
Harris, but the Dem apparatus more broadly (for which she’s only a cipher), tends instead to weave technically true statements together into a narrative that is not merely false but egregiously so, often approaching a near-perfect inversion of reality. The result is a hall of mirrors world in which Dem bullshit is laundered through and ratified by society’s sense-making institutions and becomes a sort of distributed knowledge or ‘common sense’ among elites such that no one person or node in the network ever has to bear personal responsibility for the falsehood—they didn’t come up with it, it was reported in the Times or put out by the CDC or American Association of Pediatrics or leaked by sources in the intelligence community, who “requested anonymity to discuss sensitive matters.”
However, Trump can be directionally wrong on some issues too and this tweet underestimates the dishonesty of Harris side on the migration and various debates.
In terms of what is happening in Springfield Ohio there isn't an equivalency between the two sides. The one that brought 20000+ Haitians, and funds it through NGO networks, and is trying to replace Americans, and the side that opposes it.
When Ed Yudkowsky for example agreed with an ex reddit admin that right wingers have been banned more so by reddit mods because they break the rules more, and not because they have been targeted for their ideology, he was engaging in dishonesty that gets more plausible deniability.
Another relevant issue in regards to the norms discussion and the behavior of lib/rationalist space is that righteous anger that is proportionate is also necessary and good in politics, while uncontrolled and irrational rage is bad as is irrational indifference. When I see angry relatives of a murdered son, wife, demanding justice, that is an example of indignation that leads to justice and much better than indifference, or excuses. So there is a problem with the righteous anger from the right being pathologized by people who are unrightfully hateful towards those having a proportionate response to genuine injustices at their expense. Another problem that goes along is n trying to censor them. And this being conflated with people who complain about fake injustices, and in doing so commit genuine injustices. It is actually good to be tolerant of people having legitimate gripes and be intolerant towards those who are promoting unreasonable bs, to screw over the first.
There are no centrist liberals/supposed moderates as a sizable faction who prioritize objectivity and being nice here to save people. That space doesn't exist as a sizable faction, and the faction that paints itself in such colors they have their obvious biases and hostility towards right wingers, on areas the rightists are correct about.
When it comes to the uniparty vs dissident right conflict, on various issues people like Romney who are nice to leftists but cruel to rightists, can have a more unhinged view. Take for example warmongering. Trump can also share this issue, like for example with his comments about the Democrats being insufficiently supportive of Israel, which is completely wrong, not just an exaggeration but a big lie directionally.
There are issues that right wingers are going to have both a correct and a nicer position that takes in consideration important values and facts disregarded by people who market themselves falsely as prioritizing, objectivity, or virtue. They can be politically incorrect and not nice towards sacred cows even if nicer in general, and step over hysterical demands to censor and gatekeep. To give an example,
The secret of much of politics is that people are on an article of faith acting as anti right wing oppositional force without evaluating things. They start from the conclusion and are unwilling to do things otherwise.
The liberal/"ex" liberal, con inc (though in practice not as ex as it potrays itself) space complaining about the genuine right is incapable and unwilling of recognizing these areas and separating reasonable from unreasonable which also exists. Too much resentment and hostility and seeing right wingers as the opposing tribe. Too much ideological hostility and having themselves unreasonable values they are unwilling to tolerate challenge. Some of them use the pretense of opposing tribalism as an excuse to censor and defame and narrow the intellectual space. Even edgier figures also get things right that liberals oppose. There are a few exceptions that also are atypical, like Michael Tracy and that space do manage to get some important things right on foreign policy of Trump and making critiques that deserve acknowledgement.
For the most part, the more moderate dissident rightists are among the few having some success at separating reasonable from unreasonable, and not purity spiraling. And they are hated too by the Gatekeepers who have failed themselves not to purity spiral. Ironically, not being constrained by the weights of the censorious and authoritarian liberal (including con inc, neocon, etc) gatekeepers is actually a necessity. Even though the bad faith censors pretend their censorship is for the greater good and the epitome of being nice and keeping bad culture warriors down. In actuality it is about stopping and defaming opposition and narrowing intellectual space, condemning what is correct and necessary.
Edited to add: https://x.com/realchrisrufo/status/1834926318883852543 https://christopherrufo.com/p/the-cat-eaters-of-ohio
Christopher Rufo brings evidence of African migrants eating cats in a neighboring town.
EXCLUSIVE: We have discovered that migrants are, in fact, eating cats in Ohio. We have verified, with multiple witnesses and visual cross-references, that African migrants in Dayton, the next city over from Springfield, barbecued these cats last summer.
This reinforces the perspective that plenty of people are inclined to jump to the gun to signal how rightists are getting things wrong, because of having a liberal oppositional anti-right wing ideology.
This is wrong. The number of non Axis affiliated non Jews killed in WW2 that by the same criteria as the Jews, where all dead counted as victims of the holocaust, is definitely substantially higher than 5 million. There is uncertainty and a range about possible victims but because minimum to maximum is larger, and there isn't as strong lobby, there is no doubt of it being higher than whatever the number of Jews killed. Or Jews murdered, however one would conclude that.
If criteria is people killed because of people stealing their food, outright killing them, blockade, enslavement, and harsh conditions brought through human action? The number is higher. Frankly, in eastern europe, a certain % of the dead must be allocated to the USSR for sure. Or for some dead person you could allocate different percentage of guilt. For some the party that destroyed them is without doubt a certain one. In other cases like starvation it can become more tricky.
For example if USSR follows scorch earth tactics and destroy food supplies, allies blockade food, nazis steal whatever of the food remains, and the person dies. Who killed them? There could also be considerations of who is more to blame for the civilian suffering because of their aggressive actions in the war and/or causing the war. Not to mention those more directly killed by USSR which isn't a small number.
In my view the most to blame for European theater are Nazi Germany and USSR, probably more the first to blame for more cruel conduct, but there is also a lot of fog of war and propaganda, leaving some room to explore this issue further, especially since USSR was also particularly cruel. Still, my evaluation at this point would have me put the Nazis as more responsible for most dead. Certainly it is pseudohistory that ignores USSR aggressive behavior and treats it as a victim of WW2 (the people living there are victims of the Nazis). Both powers wanted to invade each other and expand at each other expense and also were happy to invade at expend of other groups. The AngloAmerican allies also have their own responsibility for both those they directly killed (i.e Axis civilians especially but they even killed civilians of occupied countries, including deliberately bombing civilian populations of occupied countries and pretending it was an accident, based on the strategy of inciting the locals into more aggressive action against Nazi Germany), and through blockade, and whatever responsibility they might have for the war and throwing fuel into the fire in the period before it became world war. Especially in terms of aerial bombardment of civilian populations the greatest escalation came from the British first. However, in my estimation, even without angloamerican involvement after 1939, a nazi-soviet conflict that bloodies up significantly eastern Europe was very likely. And the ideologies of the Soviets and Nazi Germany made the treatment of civilians predictably disastrous.
That one Jewish ultranationalist propagandist came up with a figure that became popular figure of official 11 million number doesn't prove that it is lower. It does illustrate as a millionth example how culture can be dominated by false narratives. The 5 million is indeed self serving bullshit to fit his favorite narrative, because it is higher than 5 million. Nor should we accept the propaganda of seperating deaths from those of an intentional genocide tm, and pretending the others weren't. No care has been done by those making such framings to actually exclude people in the case of those they assign as genuine victims, based on a set of criteria. Nor do we see consistent criteria that could include people in those they don't give the status of victims of genocide.
The Jewish lobby and holocaust lobby also engaged in downplaying the armenian genocide. Downplaying the victimization of other groups by not only Jewish communists. And by that I mean the actual Jewish communist mass murderers that were quite a few, although downplayment of communist crimes as a means of indirectly excusing Jewish involvement in them also can qualify. As we see even the victimization of non Jews by the nazis is par for the course. And of course, even some revisionists of establishment consensus tm have an incentive to promote this idea. And it is tied by a weird perspective, the weirdo ideology to judge the national socialists only by their treatment of the Jews. Which is a false way to judge them since the effect of their actions on non Jews was of greater significance in their own period.
Of course in the mythology of nazism and how it is used in modern narratives, it is milked by pro jewish racists, anti europeans, antifa ideologues, far leftists, etc. One could see the post ww2 narratives as having a greater influence on the long term than what the nazis actually did, or didn't do.
But it is wrong that less than 5 million non Jews died in WW2 from non axis ethnic groups, and it is wrong that the nazis are responsible for more deaths of Jews than non Jews. And it is also good to not overly inflate the death of ethnic groups, and grossly understate of others. Especially when this is done in ways that serve the pervasive racist propaganda of our time. Such as the propaganda machine that Wiesenthal was part of. You are playing into his propaganda if you accept any of his claims at face value, including the "less than 5 million non Jews died, believe me".
The idea that Haitians are superior to the people they replace fits the far left racial supremacist mythology but it is certainly not true. You would really love for places like Haiti and their people to be superior to white Americans.
I find it notable how far leftists like to push the myth of the native working class as degenerate, inferiors. Kind of shows an obvious downside of this migration since a core aspect of it is benefiting the foreigner, or those who benefit by lower labor cost, over the native, even in terms of actual redistribution, but also in terms of social freedom, community cost, two tier justice system, an agenda in favor of insufficient policing because of the desire not to police demographics like blacks such as the Haitians, and the desire to give a misleading picture, etc, etc.
Of course the American business elite who went along with the marxist BLM, and started discriminating against white Americans are not wise for what is the common good and we need to have a gatekeeping agaisnt far left capitalists, and hiring managers, CEO, just like we ought to against NGO, Bureaucrats, Politicians. Because these people abuse their power at the expense of society, to fulfill unethical and based on false premises and criminal, and racist anti-native and anti-white objectives. Additionally short term valuing of lower cost over other important concerns like, not destroying ones nation and community, not bringing populations to be favored over foreigners, violent crime, net welfare (obviously if you as a corporation use lower wage labor but the same labor gets paid by the goverment, there is a negative externiality and a tragedy of the commons).
Anyway, the attempt to destroy and replace a population while presenting them as inferior to the replacers and lying about it, is a completly treasonous and criminal agenda. Both to advocate, and of course far more so to do it. The remedy to this is to imprison and shut down the NGO and politician networks doing this and to make it a massive taboo for people to advocate this. Prioritize this as the moral issue for people to be condemned and suffer negative consequence, over the far right boogiemen. And of course business executives pushing for this, can themselves be targeted by the legal system as facilitating an invasion. Or being part of a criminal agenda to make the native Americans tm second class citizens. Or violating democratic representation by flooding communities that were never asked.
There is an enormous problem of too understated a reaction towards extremely destructive, hostile, treasonous agenda. Tied with also people who control institutions of influence and power, using censorship and trying to impose the respect towards a faction that defiles what ought to be sacred, and deserves in turn a proportionate harsh reaction. Trying to flood with foreigners in general is violating a sacred red line, but that is doubly so with violent ones from low IQ countries with massive problems. This is a red line that should not be breached, and severe consequences should follow for those who breech this norm. We need to reestablish a norm against such massive moral hazard and need to punish the obvious problem of massive racist oikophobia from the far left that joins in its attitude and in part invites for these purposes, foreign groups and foreign nationalists. In combination with this also promotes massive racial discrimination.
Anyway, Haitians if they are so good, should run Haiti well and even from a universalist perspective this is the superior course. Of course Haiti is not a success. But in any case good luck to them. The pretense of people who have it out against European Americans that they should replace the later because the Haitians are superior is nothing but a blatantly false excuse.
Now, to quote a lot of Twitter, it is true the Haitians are ruining that community's traditions, by actually getting to work and not showing up high.
The sadistic hatred towards what ought to be your own people speaks for itself. Although it would be condemnable towards a foreign ethnic group as well because even towards foreigners you have a moral obligation not to support their destruction on the basis of their inferiority. In general but doubly so when you are distorting things. Of course, you have an even greater moral obligation towards your own people.
That this behavior exists with such predictability instead of people being too ashamed to display it, is precisely because people have failed to be sufficiently intolerant to it.
Nuanced opinions like Martyrmade are always appropriate. Conversely people slandering him should be subject to pressure against their speech, or outright restricting their rule violating behavior based on the setting it happens and people disagreeing him without trying to label it nazi apologia, or being angry, but happy for him to have his views, are welcome.
In general these idiotic taboos must be made themselves taboos. It must be taboo for people to be intolerant of deviations from Hitler maximally evil, Churchil, FDR, Stalin, did nothing wrong, and that WW2 was unavoidable. People enforcing them by trying to cancel others must face cancel culture and are greatly harmful to our culture.
I am in favor of just people in moderated discussions at least temporarilly banned from "fuck you", "nazi, or more sneaky ways to attack his character in that light. And in general there should be a norm in media and in society against this kind of reaction towards people exploring such issues.
We need to enforce a minimum level of respect towards people deviating from immoral demands for black and white maximalism. Rather than them being subject to excessive rhetorical reaction, or cancel culture.
Obviously Martyrmade is right that WW2 is used to promote warmongering todays, far left agenda, and an anti right wing and anti european prejudice.
In general, the maximalist narrative for black american slavery, WW2 narratives, is part of a general black vs white, erroneous maximalist narrative. The very idea that it is sacred for people to have only one excessive view, is ridiculous, and part of weaponized history. It is directly related to the cultural far left excesses of today.
The antifa fanatics are damaging our societies while people like Martyrmade are trying to fix those problems and counter their damage, even with his own culpability of errors.
A synthesis of views from debate between people like Martyrmade and people who share his preference against both nazism and antifa types, who have some disagreements on areas he might get wrong, would be a way for a productive way this issue to be handled, that includes an opposite side.
The "fuck you nazi apologist" types (both saying it overly or sufficiently pushing in that direction with more polite language) have nothing of value to say and we would be better off if they stayed silent. And the people who talk about how they love the german deaths in dresden, and in general all the suffering of Germans, support Palestinian, Iranian, Russians today to die, supported Hiroshima bombings, supported the death of southerners in USA and for more of them to have died in the 19th century, support the destruction of right wingers, support authoritarian imprisonment of both them and of non self hating Europeans, support the extinction of Europeans, have a very monstrous ideology, and these kind of people we genuinely shouldn't allow them to use WW2, slavery, holocaust, colonialism, as weapons. They represent an evil, which actually shares part of what has been pathological among nazis in the way nazis are presented. In my own view there is a propaganda and fog of war but the nazis did do sufficient atrocities, and acted in a sufficiently murderous imperialist manner against other nations to deserve a negative reputation.
Even though other bad guys factions have used them in their propaganda overly, as a means of justifying their own immoral agenda. Still, as far as Europeans are concerned, the antifa faction is more hostile and destructive to it than the Nazis were. And more justifiable to suppress it than neonazis a million times over, considering the damage it is doing and its destructive nature and ideology.
Of course, I don't think our culture would be great if instead of one set of immoral reaction that is today too pervasive, the dominant narrative was a different one, and it was of Hitler fanboys. The antifa types genuinely have always been bad guys, including in the time the nazis were active, both the antifa far leftists and nazis held immoral ideologies. There is a better alternative to both and Martyrmade is part of that better alternative.
Kudos to Martyrmade/Darryl Cooper for his courage. Although I disagree with him on some aspects. I think it is true that Churchil wanted the war, and pushed for it, I am not sure I buy the willingness of Hitler to take back conquests for peace after the invasion of Poland if I got my timing right. x So on some of his points he might have overreached while promoting valid points that people don't want to hear elsewhere. But in any case, I don't really care about such details, the WW2 taboo and the antifa narrative is the problem. In general Martyrmade is pushing in the right direction and doing so while knowing he will get slander thrown at him. His courage and willingness to do this is praiseworthy. The world needs more courageous and sensible people like Darryl. He is a good man.
As for the antifa ideology, this is an ideology which justifies by distorting and enforcing an one sided narrative of history a lot of evil and unreasonable stuff, including the persecution of dissenters from that. One of the most notorious, well in addition the current program of destroying and persecuting the native people of Europe, includes what this movement did in previous decades. Putting German children in the homes of pedophiles while claiming that not doing so would lead to a new holocaust.
This applies to slavery of blacks as well. In the past like in WW2 until more recently, there was more debate. But the people claiming slavery of American blacks was the worst type of slavery ever succeeded in cancelling people with more nuanced views. Helen Andrews argued that this was an erroneous narrative, but in general it is in service of the woke progressive stack agenda. And part and parcel of various frauds that it is less taboo to question, that are now encouraged, that Andrews did expose such as the lies on the Congo, or the Indian mass graves hoax in Canada. For if maximalist narratives are unquestionable, it will encourage as it has other blood libel accusations that must be unquestionable.
In conclusion, respecting dissenters and even favoring nuanced peoples while disrespecting maximalist fanatics is a good thing. We genuinely actually need to gatekeep against the personalities whose reaction is to be more hateful towards southern people today over 19th century grievances, or Germans, or whoever, than many people that lived the events nearer that times had more timid reaction. The idea that maximalism serves stop a genuine neoconfederate, neonazi threat, is preposterous. It serves an evil antifa faction agenda and a foreign nationalist agenda, and of hatred against groups I mentioned and of a supremacist agenda that weaponizes a black and white narrative to promote a caste system.
People need to be deradicalized and to get over their immoral grievances. I wonder if in another 80 years, people will be weaponizing WW2, slavery, colonialism, the holocaust the same. Hopefully we manage to put an end to it and move on. There were never an ideal level of discourse, with antifa type organizations like ADL active and influential but discussion was actually more open on several of these issues in the past and it is in near decades that the maximalist antifa types have managed to become more dominant and to pass their hate speech laws and enforce their cancel culture, to the world's detriment. And especially to the detriment of the people under such regimes. Culture can change to a healthier level again by removing hate speech laws, promoting the right voices, instead of cancelling them, while disrespecting the antifa ideologues.
Rather than goverment vs corporations it is more about governments and companies who align agenda wise, although granted part of this process includes the goverment requesting censoring, or puttings its own people in charge.
I see it as a broader network/faction.
We are entering an increasing phase of authoritarianism. The Democrats certainly and probably several republicans, possibly even a larger share of republicans than in general, on the issue of speech critical of Jews, are after European style decimation of freedom of speech.
Moreover, the existence of centralized platforms, including platforms like this very forum where someone can decide to censor or ban people at will, it self represents a power grab against freedom of speech in a way. There is also the other side, where it also allows more communication. But meat space did have some less constraints.
I believe there is a direct relationship with moderators banning people and this being celebrated and with governments imprisoning people for hate speech.
So I see it as a struggle between figures like Musk, Durov, Torba, and a totalitarian far left faction. With someone like Musk possibly somewhat compromising with them in some areas and opposing them in others.
Another facet of this is technology which helps enable centralization of power, as also seen with A.I. models being different variations of super woke which makes it easier to take peoples freedom's away. Although if the technology was utilized differently, it could have had different effects. But the possibility of technology being used to centralize and create a totalitarian system is there and it is taken advantage of. It means we are facing a techno-totalitarian threat that is unprecedented.
Like the faction against dissent includes people in goverment and in corporations, those in favor of existence of dissenting platforms should include people both outside the goverment, but also people who ought to take influence within governance, as either legislature or executives. That way, if Brazil wants to get rid of X, but Z other country and politicians like Musk, then that raises the pressure against Brazil.
You can oppose this also from pro freedom of speech grounds without being a freedom of speech absolutist.
Personally I find the issue incoherent but I find coherent to have a situation with more vs less freedom of speech but you do need to suppress some organized pollitical comisar factions. For example, eastern european countries post communism that blacklisted communists, are freer countries than western countries today, or their own communist past.
How do you protect freedom of speech absolutism if you allow people whose idea is to suppress all who go against the globohomo "our democracy" faction.
Or take the Jewish supremacist authoritarian faction. These people use their powerful companies and organisations, and donations and plausible epstein type blackmail rings to get their way. Plus, civil rights law and the idea of antisemitism. Should the ADL and Disney have the freedom to coordinate to oppose freedom? What about the influence of people speaking advocating for censoring ideas that offend the "Jews, blacks, women" are wonderful effect? Is AIPAC donation efforts something that should be suppressed? What about journalists citing the ADL to character assassinate people? Now, obviously they utilize censorship constantly, and freedom of speech absolutism is something they oppose. But also they are a faction which there is a legitimate both pro freedom and pro the rights of the groups they have it out against, and pro truth interest in suppressing.
How do you have freedom by not taking away the freedom of political comisars? How do you avoid not losing against more ruthless factions that don't care for a universal freedom of speech and want to censor your group, and allow maximum freedom for theirs?
And is freedom of speech absolutism extending to the kind of people you select to run the pro freedom of speech institutions?
Or is their desire to act otherwise subject to restriction there, and institutions should be run by people willing to abide by certain rules and following a certain perspective? And absolutism would then be for the platforms? That would make more sense. But you do have restrictions based on ideology somewhere, even if not on the platform. Or take judges, to have freedom of speech absolutism you would need judges with your preferences to be selected and judges against freedom of speech (who might express such views) be restricted.
Another issue that ought to be considered is people abandoning their legitimate interests and supporting immoral and unreasonable and even lies, or not making legitimate negative critiques due to fear of coordinated slander and reputation destruction. That is being defamed. People being afraid to speak, that is to say. To be fair, "cancel culture" can include the claim of free de-association in an one sided manner. Although there is also a part of it that is about pressure and fear of losing ones job. I am not sure freedom of speech absolutism works and you have a better system, of people not being afraid if people are restrained from defaming others over nonsense. Although I am a freedom of speech absolutist when it comes to people who are telling a plausibly necessary truth and are whistleblowing.
I am for maximum freedom for people like Gareth Jones and prefer that people like Walter Duranty were fired for spreading lies. And in his time, Gareth Jones was outnumbered because he was attacked by the communists, and friendly travelers in the American establishment while the apologist for the Soviet genocides Walter Duranty won a pulitzer. People at the time lacked the nerve to share Gareth Jones truthtelling in the face of such tactics.
The problem of people who are cowardly in the face of other people using their freedom of speech to label them, as a means of shutting them up, is not something I have seen adequately addressed, by people talking about freedom of speech absolutism. Although, perhaps with less consequences for those whose speech goes against such organized groups, there might be more courage. In general, I think we need a more sophisticated model than freedom of speech absolutism that distinguishes between courageous truth telling and attempts to suppress the truth. While I acknowledge outright censorship is a key part of this, but an important component is drowning good speech, with delegitimizing it on frivolous grounds, lies, fallacies, denials, misdirections and character assassinations. Plus, using their freedom to organize and advocate for cancel culture, and directly threaten people to go along with it, or else.
I don't disagree that we should look at how things would be applied at the time. And we shouldn't abandon being tactical in that case. So of course, I don't suggest giving more power to people who would abuse it. And it is true that the current elites anywhere, do abuse it in the direction you say. In general the freedom to say unpopular truths must include some possibility of getting things wrong.
But in an ideal sense, we would be better off if journalism and the media took defamation seriously, not in their two tier hypocritical pretense way that it would be used to enforce defamation they like, and silence accurate and exaggerations they dislike. A media that adhered to actual principles in a manner that they told the truth 100% is an impossibility, but something better than today is a possibility. And it would require changing the kind of people running the media and enforcing to them standards.
But sure part of this, can be more freedom of speech and less shutting them down, or in fact arresting, those promoting a different narrative outside of the bubble of the media that promote the same narrative, and often controlled by the same people.
Belisarius
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29d ago
There is definetly a chronic problem of anti white and really anti all the groups progressive dislike.
Right wingers shining a light on genuine problems suffer from actual censorship. There isn't an equivalence.
Conversely, liberals promoting completely false pictures about black epidemic of being falsely killed by polcie believe in false facts.
Lets just say for any right wing exaggeration believed or suppressed, much more truth is suppressed by censorship, or dishonestly pretending it is BS, or extremism. While conversely, progressive false narratives are dominant.
We would definitely benefit by starting to understand real problems and stop hiding facts. IIRC there were leaks about the trans shooter who did it motivated by the pervasive antiwhite, antichristian, narrative.
The people who censor rightists talking about genuine problems like say black crime, or any other of the taboo topics, are contributing to creating a distorted narrative that leads to a far left extreme result. What we need is to remove from positions of power people who suppress such issue, and promote false narratives, over those who would promote the truth.
Belisarius
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29d ago
Academia has too much fraudsters it self. What we need is less people like that anywhere, especially in important fields while still be wise to their tricks. So maybe a few reformed ones to catch the unreformed ones.
The main two issues with women politically are:
A) Feminism. Enough women as a block converge politically and feel entitled to preferential treatment. Additionally, they prioritise careerism over motherhood, and sympathize with the general liberal and progressive framework. Women like other demographics, including non female liberals, have become entitled and dogmatic.
I believe it isn't all in biology but there is an effect directly related to the way liberals (and supposed right wingers who in practice compromised with progressive liberalism) pander to a group and then that group becoming receptive of this pandering. That ideology and way it frames things about how "we women" (and blacks, Jews, etc) need to fight for women rights and against misogyny, creates a radicalized entited mentality. But this isn't just a woman problem, but also a problem of other identities pandered, and of the ideologues who buy into this. These people are never going to compromise, but deny and deflect the unreasonable privilidges and society destroying aspects of the dogma, and play up the weakman/strawman of any alternatives.
It is a good thing to be hostile to people biased in a feminist and anti male direction.
An aspect of this is going to be persecution of dissent, which in Britain might include imprisoning people for non feminist speech.
What we need on such issues is to abandon these dogmas and seek for workable complimentary and wise ways to sort relations between groups. Which is impossible to do under the liberal paradigm.
And also prosecution for treason totalitarian progressive extremists in power (which includes powerful Non Govermant Organizations who play a role in this) imprisoning, or generally cancelling people for not sharing this dogma, and suppressing this faction in general, in favor of what I mentioned.
People trying to solve the problems that come from the general questions and from the feminist and general progressive supremacist paradigm specifically in both inter group relations, and in a specific society. Like birth rates, or dating rate, or whether the system works well for families, or whether it is unfair towards men and/or women.
Suffice to say people like Dread Jim represent the opposite extreme in my book. So I am not suggesting that female interests are treated as of no consideration. Just not prioritized above male interests and above common good, like what kind of societal arrangement leads to successful families and strong societies, nations, even stable international order and additionally, no reason to treat female interests and the way they are framed in the feminist perspective where careerism, abortion, are prioritized.
All this requires a break from liberal/progressive orthodoxy and even from those who claim to be in opposition of it, but actually are dogmatists for it. Authoritarianism, fanaticism, support of unreasonable and false aspects and unwillingness of compromise are the pervasive aspects of not a few kids of college, but of a broad liberal faction and of feminists in general.
B) What I call "Gullible Conformism". Women are more willing to unquestionably buy into unreasonable politics that are framed under the "I am a nice person" perspective. There is also the fact that women know less facts than men as shown in various studies.
To blame only women voters will neglect the influence of a network of activists who captured power in media, corporations, goverment, control powerful activist NGOs. We now have a female voter problem too, but historically the timing was more of these types of elites coordinating first and trying to influence women. Without them, the issue with women would had been lesser. And to be fair, women had played a role in this by taking part in the feminist movement.
But in the current situation it does exist. However with different ideology being promoted a decent % of women would distance themselves from feminism.
In regards to voting, I have entertained the idea of limiting the vote to people who pass a test that examines both their knowledge and capability to prioritize the common good. Obviously if implemented today in countries run by the far left, it would result in banning all non far leftists from voting. But in an ideal way, it would mean selecting people who understand key facts, and share some key important moral principles and demonstrate wisdom.
Which isn't apolitical but goes directly against cultural marxism/ modern far left, which is mainstream liberalism. For example there would be a question about whether "Do our people have a right to continue existing by restricting the right of foreigners to immigrate and settle on our lands, or we shouldn't have that right, because it should be considered racist and prioritised above it". Same in regards to feminism and affirmative action were the concept of excessive women rights should be put under consideration with the common good. Include some edgier questions that put in the recepient the threat of being thought as not being nice, or associating with extreme movement, but the correct position would be to do just that.
Another issue that goes beyond voting, is that a democratic regime as any textbook claims, should be about more things than majority decides. The far left conveniently either supports or tolerates far left extremism, and opposes people opposing it, but either opposes or tolerates opposing as unconstitutional the implementation of even reasonable politics which they consider to go against the red lines of the left, and associate with far right extremism.
People implementing the agenda is to disenfranchise, and treat as second class citizens or vilify, the groups progressive dislike, should be treated as people engaging in illegal and unconstitutional activity. And all organisations of this agenda should be banned. People who have done this, should be prosecuted for the crime of stripping groups from their rights, and in various cases for treason.
For example, if leftist ideologues in the police, goverment, start discriminating against the native people, you can and should imprison them. Or if they imprison people for not real crimes. There needs to be an overton window that closes and doesn't tolerate agendas that is sufficiently far to the left, including the cultural left.
Ideally, countries should not be run by oikophobes, who act as foreign occupation goverment in their mistreatment of their native people and their disallowance of existence as a community. Amd neither by extreme nationalists, not in the way the liberal/far left/"conservatives" who compromise with it define it, but those who are acting in a very parasitical and destructive manner to other nations. Same applies to other identity politics.
So the solution to this is to treat mainstream liberal ideology as an illegitimate extreme ideology, and try to promote something both more moderate, and therefore more conservative, and directly seek to solve social problems that will remain denied, treated as conspiracies, or treated as non problems, under the liberal dogma. Obviously if you aren't sufficiently conservative you can never be a moderate.
While simultaneously, pressuring groups like women to not be feminist, and stop putting women above men, in addition to promoting this ideology in the broader society. The ideology that progressive supremacy is an extreme destructive ideology, is the way forward to stop both the problems caused of it, but also the problem it cause of inter group conflict by stirring an entitled tribalist hateful attitute from pandered groups, and from people who become extreme tribalists for groups that aren't their own, and disrespectful of legitimate rights of other groups.
Of course, another problem of this ideology that we would benefit when it is suppressed, and it appears in this discussion by people indulging in this behavior, is the huge levels of bulverism and vilification and reality denial. People on the right can't have legitimate problems and oppose things, but must be nazis, incels, and all sort of boogie labels whose grievances are wholly illegitimate. This behavior, not only very dangerously leads to tyranny, and allows lies to foster, and has been key element to some of worst atrocities by far leftists in 20th century, but makes it impossible to rationally examine any issue.
Frankly, even among those ideological groups on the right which I have differences and find too extreme (referring to groups that are large enough to have some influence), who are fewer than those who claim to be on the right and compromise with far left, I very rarely if ever find any of them who have mostly illegitimate grievances against the left and leftist outgroups. It is just ridiculous propaganda. The typical type who I would say go to far, has legitimate complaints about legitimately bad behavior against the left and tribal groups associated with the left, but what they want as an end point, goes too far in a cruel and sectarian tribalist direction for my taste. That's it really. The leftist propaganda of insane far right extremist is it self promoting an insanity, and doing it often strategically maliciously so that the right can be losers, by treating their whole grievances as illegitimate.
The underlying message being that to prove you are not incel/nazi/far right be self destructive and betray your causes for the lefts. People who buy into this, will compromise with a subservient position for men and other demographics, and a subservient relationship, promising to be more subservient towards the far left.
So yeah, this type of perspective being absent from our discourse, would allow us to actually implement better gender relations that under the feminist paradigm and the bullying tactics of go along or you are a misogynist incel red piller man rights activst blah blah.
I think an important point of deradicalizing society, and I would expect with the right people in charge of the media the majority to pass the tests I entertained as an idea, would be for people to develop an active thick skin against these manipulation tactics. To become wise to this movement. Where they and the magic words no longer work anymore, and where people turn against those who will implement such tactics.
Belisarius
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1mo ago
I agree that Rov is dismissing a valid issue for bad reasons and it is fair to talk of PMC, but as far as I am aware the concept of the Managerial class has its origin in James Burnham's Managerial Revolution. Who is an individual who moved from being a Trotskyist to being a right winger. I believe he wasn't a Trotskyist by the time he wrote the Managerial Revolution but he wrote it at a point where it was just a few years after he broke from Trotskyism, and that intellectual legacy still shaped to an extend the way he analyzed things.
Mass migration as exists in Britain blatantly violates the rights of the native people, to national existence and self determination and leads to violence that is covered up and downplayed by the establishment, in addition to discrimination against the native Britons which is happening in terms of AA and in general transforming are lower caste. Especially where the issue has to do with ethnic group relations.
Britain is also an incredibly totalitarian police state were opponents of this are being arrested and were serious crime is prioritized over persecuting dissent.
At such, you are essentially supporting the eventual destruction of the British people and their current and increasing mistreatment and violation of their rights. That is a transformation into increasingly oppressed second class citzens, until they become a small minority, and under threat of even more radical parties acting worse, or no longer exist as a group.
Of course if rules of the multicultural Britain, about racism were enforced equally, the consequences of advancing such notions would be severe. But one sided application is part of those rule. But even if the absurdly draconian and one sided rules weren't enforced consistently and equally, there is a problem with that position and its influence and with the existence of a network with worldwide adherents whose agenda is to harm groups like the British. There is also a national security lens. Britain has a national security obligation to suppress the faction that promotes mass migration that is so enormously destructive and racist against Britain and the British people.
Outside of the interest of Britain in particular, there is a universal value and an international justice interest in supressing anti european extremism that denies native europeans their legitimate rights and supports their national destruction and transformation of their country into ones were until they are second class citizens with their historical homeland putting Muslims, Blacks, Jews and others above them. Although this interest isn't numerical, the way I see it, international institutions should be captured by people who don't think Europeans are exempt from the national rights that other group deserve. And then enforce a punishment against the networks promoting the opposite agenda, and of course not allow such people to rise through ranks of running things and remove this moral hazard. I would advocate as superior to a situation where it is worldwide group vs group limitless conflict, that we try to impose reasonable reciprical rules worldwide.
Part of this should of course include deportations of plenty of people who got paper making them fake X nation from cultural marxists who are hostile against their own nation (and timing also plays a role, with most mass migration being relatively recent), such as foreign supporters of mass migration, and affirmative action type politics who have been used for the crime of purposeful demographic displacement and replacement but not to deport everyone of foreign background. Not only mass migration ought to stop but the one that already has happened is of an illegitimate nature and a policy that already violated a) the opinion of native majority b) even more importantly than their opinion against mass migration, their interest and right, not to be replaced in their own homeland. Which also comes along with their interest not to be replaced by hostile foreign tribes that retain a foreign identity which is part and parcel of mass migration of a foreign ethnic groups and can't be separated.
However some level of limited migration can be legitimate. Britain should have net negative migration at this point and for quite some time. But you can have a few into the many, who respect the nation of the many, and understand it is the homeland of the natives and willing to make a life there without deconstructing the nation and its legitimacy. Nor are they in sufficient numbers to screw them over, and nor are they being disrespectful. So mass migration of hostile foreigners is inherently an illegitimate agenda that violates the human rights of the native people, which is why it isn't an accident that anti-native ideologues support it, because it helps them do all of their agenda to screw over the native ethnic group, and put above the migrant ethnic groups.
Moreover it is possible for a certain nation state and limited civic nationalism to coexist, provided the later recognised the first. Opposing any nation state leads to communist like soviet new man oppressive societies, and in the current context also comes along with putting migrants first, something that those supporting or oppossing mass migration, should be aware of, and have a duty to be aware of. And a random observer would expect them to be aware of.
Current Britain is one of the more exemplary failure of the ideology of war against nation state.
Anyhow some migrants can be closer to host nation and more easier assimiliable, in addition to the case of others who are small in number and selected for human capital and more important than IQ, friendlyness (with ethnic similarity also working as proxy for that in many cases). The few can more easilly mix and become the many, provided they have the mentality of doing so and don't retain an identity hostile to the natives. Paper Brits like the stabber and many of the rioter counter protesters should not be in places like Britain, but in their actual homelands that they hold greater connection with than they have towards the English, Welsh, Scots, etc people.
Supporting mass migration should qualify as a criteria for recognizing an individual as putting the interest of foreigners first and disregarding the interests of the natives and their ethnic groups. It is a very hostile act. Should matter when considering deportations both in terms of patterns of groups and in terms of specific individuals.
On the other side, it is a prerequisite of a good migrant, or descendant of migrants to support shutting down the door behind them and to like the native nativists more than foreign migrants outside wanting to come in. The state should control such sentiments not only by inviting far less, deporting people after the criminal error at expense of its own people of letting too many whcih inevitably have these hostility, but also should both select those with pro native sentiments, but also try to enforce and encourage among migrants the duty to respect their host nation and their people. Over the sadistic disregard of them that we see as the rising sentiment today. Hence, the kind of people who ought to be prioritized, those more likely to be net drains, criminals but also those who are hostile and make things into a two tier society, even if they are otherwise economically competent.
Additionally, good migrants of foreign ethnicity who proportionately to the natives have to be a smaller proportion, because mass migration of foreigners is itself is a hostile and immoral act should support some level of deportations against the bad migrants that are taking over the country of the Britons and part of the disrespect and two tier society. There is certainly a problem of native, antinativism though that also deserves attention. There is also a possibility for some migrants being in their sentiments of less severe form of extremism and deradicalized. Although too many numbers is it self an issue but I don't care to promote the specific minitia of how this should be enforced since I don't really have a strong opinion on that, but the general template is the obvious response to antinative policy, sentiment being enforced and colonization.
Indeed WW2 provides lessons. The problem of the mid century Germans wasn't that they opposed migration, or didn't like the genuinely evil and european hating Frankfurt school and familiars, which should never have been allowed to take root in USA and from then elsewhere, but that they tried to invade and greatly replace other nations and also disallow them from being nations, having national independence and institutions. Disrespecting legitimate rights of other ethnic groups including atrocities relating to that. Ironically there is a shared element between Frankfurt school types who see their outgroup nationalists as authoritarian personality insane and evil and Germans who were saying that the Russian or Polish nation is a threat, and even modern types like Soros and fellow travelers who consider modern European nations a threat to Jews, Muslims and other so called minorities who actually some of them are worldwide not quite such a small minority.
Well, there were also deportations, including through violence which isn't an example to follow at end of WW2 from places Germans have been there for long, but also there was a reversal of the agenda of Germans to Germanize parts of Europe and replace the non Germans. The later element which was about stopping colonization is the lesson here, not to follow the course of any side fully from WW2 since a lot of bad behavior around even among the less badly behaved parties. And of course in age of decolinization, Europeans left from many countries which also took property restrictions in addition to in some cases, deportations which included a more violent nature than what I advocate.
But Europeans aren't seen as wronged by this, and in fact people claiming to support decolonization claim that mass migration is the new form of decolonization which is of course about colonizing Europeans. In general the correct idea of national rights as part of international justice is commonly accepted, and in fact even plenty of strong reactions can be excused. Well, I am not looking for that, but looking for rules that are consistent in general and protect Europeans and others affected by this too (like perhaps Japanese might start to be targeted), but also with special attention towards those targeted for destruction, to the extend this network is active. International organizations like Amnesty international that pretend that Europeans aren't indigenous, should not exist and that is the fig leave of those who either pretend the rules don't exist, or come with excuses not to apply them to Europeans, or simply don't understand their value.
The agenda to end the existence of Europeans in their homelands is a criminal extremely racist agenda that is against international justice, and the crime of trying to diminish Europeans as a hated dhimni minority is a crime against humanity. Which definitely means that the media who are an organ of masisve power and massive responsibility promoting "mass migration", or a political party having such an agenda, raises to the level of advocating and implementing the kind of things that should not be allowed and makes perfect sense to consider treason. Same for ideological NGOs, or ethnic supremacist organisations advocating on behalf of other groups and expense of Europeans and the general network that makes those working together for such agenda.
Even for laypeople, they have a moral obligation, whatever their ethnicity to not advocate for this, but things escalate when one reaches important institutions where such agenda should not be promoted. Internationally oriented perspective and institutions and also nationally oriented ones where it affects theirs, and people who have both perspectives in a certain mixture, should reject agendas to destroy Europeans or any particular group of ethnic groups, and assert the protection of peoples and their homeland as an obvious core value. So, not only in Britain but international NGOs, or the agenda that results from the leaders of EU, UN, NATO, etc, etc, should of course support the rights of Europeans in their own homeland.
I am confident that I understood your position when I tried to explore your position and found it contradictory and not much different with countless neocons who argued that nationalism for Israel is acceptable under pluralistic grounds but identity politics for whites is unacceptable. I even give people whose position fits into that, as supporting or tolerating identity politics of more extreme and pervasive type, but overly focusing on white identity politics, an opportunity to actually support changing the situation into one where rules are enforced equally and identitarian organisations of the form of ADL, NAACP and similiar are shut down. But they don't even do the cheap rhetorical commitment of doing that.
The reality is if you have a kid that is being ganged upon by a group of other kids, and some of these kids include the establishment right, and you see both clear supporters of other kids, and people whose position might be a little less obvious but still support the other kids, argue that the beaten kid shouldn't fight back, well that position is a) clearly against the other kid b) it is legitimate for people to conclude that the person advocating it is doing it because he is out to get the other kid, and isn't doing it by accident because of an ideological commitment to pacifism.
Which is why people who exercise freedom of speech like Orwell, made exactly such suspicions about some people who promoted pacifism but were actually USSR sympathisers.
I fully understand why people who have such position want people to accept that they are doing nothing wrong, but it is not understanding that you want, but complimentary misunderstanding. Perhaps you would be ok with complimentary understanding where people are willing to accept different standards for Israel and for Europeans as a good thing which we have seen plenty of such rhetoric in both the motte and outside of it. And you don't show hostility to it ever.
Not to mention it is fair to explore the end results of what you advocate, and all the shared ground you plural who advocate similiar positions, and you singular have with blatant ethnic activists and far left activists, and to note such similarities.
Also fully fair to note that the fact that collective identity politics don't exist, is a self evidently false statement, including about ethnic groups and also a very destructive and radical notion. Just one that is pervasive promoted against right wingers by gatekeepers in the USA because of the success of activists who have been antiwhite, and have used it as part of motte and bailey against whites.
Establishment types in the places where this radical ideologues and activists have been successful and all sort of lower level "thought leaders" who share this type of ideology, have constantly, just as you have demonstrated again, be completely hostile to discussing such issues, showing a complete lack of respect towards any dissenters.
Political correctness in favor of the position against collective group interest and positive identity, and also against especially europeans is enforced through slander, vilification and censorship and enormous lack of charity. One especially willing to use such methods have been those who want two tiers world in regards to Israel and Jewish nationalism and European nationalism, where they are willing to support a huge excess of the first, while opposing the healthy legitimate rights of the later.
This is to say, people who try to accurately explore these issues are attacked for doing so, by people who want to enforce a doublethink on them and get away with agendas that are very destructive against certain groups. Supporters of the modern antinative establishment and negative group identity for europeans, do not and have never shown anything but lack of charity against anyone who opposes this agend.
Accurately revealing the ugly side of how the sausage is made leads to such reaction. So there is typically and here again a lot of of projection about lack of charity, when you are being incredibly uncharitable in dismissing everything the other party has said.
Although, while such issues ought to be adequately explored, it is also true that the advocate of X or Y radical destructive position, isn't in itself someone who ought to have any megaphone. This machine/network which is so enthusiastic about shutting down any timid collectivism for their oppressed outgroup, should be suppressed.
It is justifiable in general for people to both criticize, and oppose agendas that are very destructive towards other groups, (especially when the other group being harmed is their own group), and even more so when they don't fit into grey areas.
Opposing such things is being charitable towards the innocent and those harmed by them, while not opposing them is being uncharitable. Those who do promote a very destructive agenda, are not treated unfairly if their agenda is stated accurately and therefore are in that manner criticized for it. Nor if they are criticized more directly than I did here. And neither if they are stopped from harming people.
We ought to look at consequences, have important moral priors and not excuse ideological window dressing that tries to frame something that is very destructive and comes along with double standards, or oppressive, by misstating it and promoting an inaccurately complimentary positive frame. Whether it is the positive version of the strawman, or it simply indifferent to the damage the ideology does.
But we do need a world that discusses and explores such issues, which is a requirement to understand why some perspectives are destructive. And part of this includes sharing good moral priors.
Like the ones I argued about reciprocity, consistency, understanding the successes that comes from internationalism of reciprocoal nationalism, and the destructive nature of not allowing nations to exist, etc, etc. Or the importance of not covering the substance of what is happening by frames that excuse and mislead. Believe me, I don't explore and argue such things just cause I woke one morning and thought "I have it out against naraburns" but because such issues that you devalue, in a manner that is genuinely extremely destructive against Europeans, are legitimately valuable. When I say this path had lead to disaster, is because it did and does. That doesn't mean that in a place here, I am not debating it. But it isn't an issue where your position is a reasonable way to explore the issue of european group interests, or of nationalism.
There is plenty of debate to be had about legitimate issues that exist in the grey lines, even though whether collective group interests, or collective group interests exist, is not only the case where the position you have advocated is wrong, but it also is one of those issues that we can explore and have correct conclusions about why you are wrong. Note that this isn't an opportunity for a claim that justifies censorship on the basis of opposing close midnedness. Because the view that your position is very wrong, and advocating something destructive and self evidently unreasonable is legitimate. People don't have to treat proposition like "collective interests don't exist" as valid, when they are highly invalid claims.
The existence of illegitimate issues that political corectness tries to enforce is why political corectness comes along with postmodernism as a means to promote and weaponize excessive subjectivity on the issues it can be demonstrated to be wrong. And then assert very radical positions confidently and cancel dissenters.
Such as the arrogant path against nations, that so often comes along with authoritarianism. The advocates of the "antinationalist agenda" are pervasively, and not only on those openly identifying as part of the left, or woke, those where they see some groups as inherently more reactionary, and some as inherently more equal. This is a common trend among the anti nationalist anti collective group interest faction.
Both an agenda against the existence of nations, and even more radically, collective group interest in general and specifically the agenda against particular nations like European nations, is not hard to decipher that it is a destructive position. The "no collectivism" arguement against whites isn't a mystery, of how it is connected with current antiwhite practices, laws.
Nor is it had to imagine how the current radical status quo will lead in the future in a worsening situation, as the demographics who supporting doubling down on such issues, increase, and as authoritarian measures against dissenters are intensified. And while those doing so, gain legitimacy by advocacy against collective group interests who focus their ire the "identitarian right" and cover up for the establishment in the places where such establishment has been sufficiently captured by racist radicals and those who compromise and comprise with them on such issues a unipaty. Saying that what the position you advocate for, ends in those consequences is an accurate observation about the influence of what you advocate.
Of course, people should explore such issues enough to understand how certain perspectives pave the way to hell. Even if you want us not to be able to do so.
But the end point is to understand what is happening and stop building the road to hell. Not deny its existence, attack those who point it. And certainly not to compliment the ideologies that lead us there.
Israel is a reasonably successful pluralistic state in a region of the world that desperately needs more such things.
Israel is a Jewish highly nationalist state that affords privileges to Jews on the basis of ethnicity and very willing to commit mass violence against Palestinians on basis of benefiting Jews and hating the foreign group treated as a hostile outside threat. It is a highly nationalist state because the Jews are collectively a highly nationalistic people, which is why they are so hostile to the nationalism of other groups.
It is certainly an exclusive state that sees itself collectively. That not only Jews are part of that state does not make it a pluralistic state, nor is there any significant movement to open Israel's border even to high human capital mass migration. Plenty of nation states can have a minority group. You are just using pluralism as an excuse to support and defend the Jewish nationalism of Israel. You want to get away with double standards by using rhetoric of pluralism where if you genuinely had a problem with nationalism and collective group interests, you would be criticizing Israel for how it fails pluralism in the region by supporting violence and regime change against other groups (now I am not blaming Israelis alone for being the only nationalists in the region of course), not trying to come with a frame that allows you to keep your cake and eat it too.
Moreover, the point isn't just Israel it self but its supporters and the Jewish supremacist faction in general who are authoritarian who try to maintain through slander, cancel culture and authoritarianism and through even legislation a two tier system that has Jews as a superior caste where they are treated as in the right and other groups as their oppressors both historically, and presently and where resources and support is advocated to be directed in favor of them. Where politicians who don't support funding Israel and aren't controlled by AIPAC like Massie are slandered as antisemites, which of course such behavior and rhetoric qualifies as identity politics in favor of collective interests of Jews.
Now, I am not trying to debate this issue with Jewish supremacists who support it and think Jews genuinely are a superior people that a convenient false slander label they come up with of "antisemites" have a problem with because they are evil and there is nothing wrong with the Jewish supremacist agenda (it doesn't exist but it is good and one is evil to oppose it).
I dunno if you are willing yourself to advance such an argument and try to paint it as not qualifying as Jewish identity politcs.
I reject outright that viewpoint, but the point isn't to debate it with Jewish identitarians (including non Jews Jewish identitarians)who support it, but that Jewish identity politics are pervasive. My view is that they are of a supremacist. overzealous form at expense of other nations, and uncompromising nature, but even if one disagrees with that, their existence, including especially among republicans too, is even less up to debate.
But, I wouldn't say that Jewish collective interests are illegitimate if not of an overzealous parasitical nature, although collective Jewish interests of any nature become much more illegitimate when there are enough Jews and even non Jewish overzealous supporters of Jews who deny collective interests of other groups. Additionally, they become illegitimate if we adopt that ideology and promote it consistently. The more these people advocate such arguments, the more we should not grant rights to those who don't believe such rights should be granted to others.
Does Israel have a right to exist? Certainly far less so when you claim there are no collective interests. The law of reciprocity, and applying rules consistently argues against Israel's rights since it is a particularist state that denies the opportunity to countless non Jews to be part of it.
Claiming that there is a problematic white identitarian right is covering for an establishment right that goes way above and beyond in promoting the collective interests of various groups but especially authoritarian on Jews and Israel. In an overzealous parasitical manner at expense of others.
But I would disagree, because there are no benefits I would extend to the Israeli people that I would not cheerfully extend to anyone whose behavior is reasonably comparable. Since I do not give any special consideration to the Jewish people or Israeli nationals (many of whom are not Jewish), it is nonsense to say that I "support identity politics for Jews."
So theoretically you treat everyone the same even though when push comes to shove you don't actually do that in terms of your stated positions since you support a Jewish nationalist state that takes in consideration collective Jewish interests in its policy but oppose the collective interests of Europeans. Somehow your double standards are ok because Israel is pluralistic.
It isn't my fault that your positions are contradictory.
At the current situation Israel is guilty of genocide in accordance to the International Court of Justice. Is your argument that Israel is exceptional in its behavior to justify your massive double standards? Jewish exceptionalism is hardcore Jewish identity politics 101. It is different because Jews deserve more because of their innately better behavior would be identity politics in addition to being inaccurate general, but doubly so in the current circumstances to advocate the neocon arguement of Israel as shining beacon of light upon the nations above the nationalistic tribal conflict typical in humanity.
I find your claim of consistency to be inaccurate.
Hypothetically, it is different but in practice, we have been here before, the end result of people doing this motte and bailey and claiming to be in theory against collectivism, is to support the abuse and disregard of the rights of their European outgroup. And this comes along with hardcore cancel culture too and authoritarianism.
Have you been as loud about shutting down groups like ADL, NAACP, AIPAC, and many more which are much more influential to justify focusing upon over white collective? Have you taken part in the debate of the goverment, including local promoting hate speech codes, including republicans, in favor of Jews and against non Jews, by opposing this?
If not, how is a status quo with identitarian overzealous groups that actually are succeeding in mistreating whites, and one where there are no acceptable white advocacy organizations, one that leads to where you claim you favor going?
Unless where you favor going is a two tier society that is excused under the pretense of exceptionalism, or justification of historical oppression.
Of course, in practical terms, it's very difficult to carry out sweeping government intervention without engaging in interest aggregation. To me, this seems like an excellent reason to not have sweeping government interventions. Government should focus on coordinating behaviors for the good of everyone. Thus for example, having a standard for traffic flow is good. It doesn't matter who you are, you stop on red and go on green; this is not a deep moral principle, it's just the otherwise-arbitrary standard we all follow so we can all accrue benefit from the common use of roads. That's a totally appropriate use of government power, on my view, and there is not so much as a whiff of "identity politics" in it. Many things are good for everyone, and many things can be appropriately targeted toward objective individual differences rather than group membership.
This is pretty communist way to see the duty of goverment and must be rejected outright even if someone supported it sincerely as it is a very extreme nonsensical idea that has worked very poorly and disregards fundamentally important facets of constitutional governance. In practice, when it comes to the end result of what they support there very few commited antinationalists of a consistent civic libertarian viewpoint and many more people advancing such viewpoint that are neocons. Indeed I can't but think of Gad Saad as an example who has promoted this mantra of opposing identity politics, is an overzealous Jewish identitarian and admitted that he worked for Mossad once in an operation in Canada.
Neither the goverment, nor private institutions should limit themselves to only issues like traffic lights. Who is you or anyone, to decide that governments should deny and not promote the collective interests of people in their own homelands? Especially when you are supportive of Israel which does exactly that.
To destroy all precedent of nation and constitutional order, in favor of a regime that through such excuses violates native rights in favor of foreign groups. Just because you don't want it, doesn't mean you have valid reason to not want it, and that it isn't a terrible idea to deny them their legitimate rights and create a totalitarian society that oppresses people who belong in ethnic communities in general, and also more so in specific ones in particular.
Of course issues relating to group relations, national history, and immigration need to be decided and governments have a duty to promote the interests of their nation and people, well to a point where they don't act parasitically against other nations and there is some room for debate about where that line is. A reasonable application would require shutting down the machine/network out to oppress, and or destroy the continuing existence of white ethnic groups though.
I am going to also defend the precautionary value of connecting the dots of what people directly argue and also taking in consideration the fact that people who promote arguments against collectivism because of reasons of antipathy and sympathy are so pervasive that we ought to assume that a denial of collective interests against Europeans is about denying collective interests of Europeans because one favors other groups too much and is acting out of antipathy. One would allow people to continue doing this unimpeded by being gullible.
It doesn't matter how one tries to excuse things, if they support the establishment and are satisfied with how they are against identity politics, then what they compromise with is a situation where they support the dominant ideology which is motte and bailey between "I oppose identity politics, collectivism, tribalism" and "I support and promote it through law and policy the collective interests of X, Y other groups at expense of whites". And it really is about using the pretense of universalism to harm a particular outgroup. If someone has some doublethink about this and isn't aware of what they align with, it doesn't change the consequences of the ideology of the faction they prefer.
Because there's no such thing as collective interests.
Of course there are collective interests. Including on ethnic issues. And we also need decisions to be made about such issues. For example X group has a collective interest not to be blamed for things it did do, or for things it didn't do. It has a collective interest to not be a hated minority in its own country. To have national sovereignity and self determination. It definetly has a collective interest to have recognised collective interests and to suppress enemies that want to mistreat it or destroy it, by denying it any of its collective interests.
The reality is that people who claim there are no collective interests do take a side that favors some collective interests far more than others.
There are even possible collective interests that might go too far for one group that violates legitimate collective interests of other groups. Claiming that there are no collective interests is a clear falsehood that is not really up to debate based on the fact that it is self evidently false. It is easier to violate the collective rights and interests of a group if you deny them.
Or, perhaps it would be better to say that collective interests are an abstraction which erode proper attention to individual circumstance.
It is very arrogant of you to deny collective interest to nations and you are walking a path that has failed catastrophically. Imagine non nations, religions, collectives is an impossible dream that leads to a violent repressive dystopia. Although in my view you are inconsistent and are advancing an argument to promote it against the outgroup.
Individual circumstance are definitely affected by collective interests. Individuals together form groups who individually benefit through their collective interests on many more issues than traffic lights. There is a reason why foreign extreme nationalists oppose national collectivism and rootedness for the ethnic groups they have on their sights. And the reason is because they want to harm and prey upon them, which is harder to do against a people who defend their collective interests and have a nation that tries to stop treason. No collective interests for the outgroup, makes it easy to harm them.
Which is why activists that are definitely collectivists have been the key drivers of this. Because they opposed the collective interests of their outgroup. So at the current situation we are at where collectivists for other groups, that oppose collectivism for Europeans, are getting their way.
But in general, I would deny what you claim even outside the particulars of the problem of the motte and bailey being a core part of "no collective interests". It is highly destructive to humanity in general to throw aside the valid ground gained related to collective group interests, relating to the valuable concept of the rights of ethnic community, value of rootedness and connection with ones history and ethnic community, national self determination, nation state, national sovereignty and international justice which is about recognizing such collective rights and recognizing limits and reciprocal compromise. Replacing them with an ideology of denial is self destructive for any group that adopts this and enables racial hatred from other groups who are now entitled in not allowing others to have those things.
The activists know this which is why activists who highly dislike X group but support Z, oppose X taking collective group identity and their rights as a nation in consideration.
You are part of the identitarian left since you support identity politics for Jews, and the default on the republicans which is to promote identity politics for blacks, hispanics, etc but not for whites. Which is actually a far more identitarian and racist position than if the republicans pandered more towards white Americans. Which they ought to and it is antidemocratic and antiwhite and antiamerican and racist for them not to do this.
To talk of an existence of an identitarian right in American politics is to promote a false concept. Everyone in American politics supports and promotes identity politics, especially those claiming otherwise who are far more extreme and have a very racist anti-native platform.
The so called identitarian right are basically the only people who don't adopt the leftist ideology to support identity politics for non whites and oppose it for whites on antiwhite grounds, while laundering this ideology under universalist pretenses. The more moderate version of this, people like Jon Harris are genuinely objectively promoting something far less racist than antiwhite identitarians. https://gab.com/jonharris1989. A lacking identity politics for whites is basically antiwhite and could be very well argued to be treasonous in european countries and xenophobic demand in non european countries. While of course limitless white identity politics shares morally the problem of the kind of identity politics both you and more hardcore identitarians of the progressive stack.
Now, you aren't directly progressive stack for non Jews , but by focusing on opposing white identity politics, supporting immigration, and tolerating nonwhite identity politics, you still qualify as part of that faction and team. People who sincerely claim to oppose any form of collective identity should hate the current establishment right and should focus especially their rhetoric against Jewish organizations and two tier society they demand and of course other progressive organizations, not try to focus so much on trying to influence the group that is getting discriminated to have no advocates and collectivism. When that is obviously related to them getting screwed over. Obviously people who focus on the not real problem of excessive white identity politics and cover up the real problem of excessive Jewish (especially this because the republicans have promoted enormous level of jewish identity politics including in legislation), Black, Hispanic, etc identity politics among the fake establishment right, are not promoting a valid argument. It is also valid to argue that they align with progressive faction.
Of course "no nations, family, religion, collective identity" is commie immoral ideology anyhow that has lead to enormous persecution of normal people by fanatical ideologues and also mass murders. And done also in all particular singular axis, including ethnicity/race.
Moreover its adherents often are inconsistent and also see certain ethnic groups as inherently bigger enemies of their racial utopia than others. Anti-white racism is obviously motivated by the idea that white identity politics is inherently evil, from the pretense of universalist opposition to racism. Which is about the idea that they are uniquely reactionary and evil while nationalism for groups like blacks, Jews, Muslims, Hispanics, Asians, is not.
But there is a validity in opposing certain forms of overzealous tribalism, and especially where it is more illegitimate. Even native nationalism can go out of hand but in european countries it is antinative nationalism the problem today and persecuting the native european people. As for how tribalism levels can change based on context, for example, Nigerians should be nationalistic to a point in Nigeria, but shouldn't even be in any significant numbers in say Britain, and to the extend there are a few of them there, should respect Britain as the homeland of British ethnic groups like English, Welsh, Scots and be much less for Nigerian nationalism in Britain that belongs to the British.
Native identity politics is a key element of justice, both national (lack of it being treasonous and in various constitutions it is explicit that the rulers should prioritize the interests of the nation and going against their nation would qualify as treason) and of international justice specifically, and foreigners respecting the rights of foreign nations is anti-racist. The demand against white identity politics is not about anti-racism but about anti-white racism and not respecting the human rights of white people in their own homelands. It is about an agenda of colonizing these countries and treating its native inhabitans as lesser class citizens and making any resistance to this vilified and illegal.
Note that if we define the USA as a country that isn't just the homeland of European americans and that other groups have a right to it, like blacks, and the relationship to it of more recent mass migration is a huge can of worms, but even then the genuine politics people try to gatekeep which is "pander towards other groups but not whites" which leads to whites being discriminated increasingly not hired in corporate america, make zero sense. See: https://www.bloomberg.com/graphics/2023-black-lives-matter-equal-opportunity-corporate-diversity/
Why shouldn't the majority ethnic group have their collective interests be taken seriously by its rulers? Why is oppressing them by adopting immoral commie politics (which also are the immoral politics that foreign extreme nationalists follow against foreign nations they dislike and try to keep down) against normies belonging in their ethnic community, a good thing at all?
Actually giving the majority ethnic group a positive collective identity and taking in consideration their interests as a group (well to a point, you don't invade your neighbors to gain more land and displace them for example as that goes too far) is part of promoting the common good. It is also part of what being a country is about and national sovereignity is about things like limiting immigration, and promoting the continued existence of ethnic community or at most and it is quite more difficult thing to do, particular ethnic communities.
The dominant strain of American politics is of a two tier society hiding behind pretenses of opposing identity politics that nobody, or almost nobody follows consistently. The correct take is that this is obviously racist antiwhite politics by the continuous success of activists who have influenced society (including in the Republican party) that want to put the interest of non white groups first and to completely disregard the interests of whites, including the basic interest in their continued existence as ethnic groups. Which is why there is a problem with NGOs and Jewish organizations which particularly played and play important role that are racist and have obviously promoted this two tier society, but also black activist organizations and other organizations, because of this overzealous nature they have in not respecting the rights of their white christian outgroup.
Part of homogeneity is common ethnic consciousness, commonality in language, religion, ancestry, insufficient history of remaining grudges and bad blood, etc. The English are one ethnic group, even with some heterogeneous elements and diversity in their history.
Ethnic groups have some heterogeneity in them. As with most things, the amount matters. Increase substantially differences, and you get a nation comprising of different groups. This is a genuine difference that relates to accurately separating ethnic groups.
This doesn't bias things, since you still got a homogeneous situation if the divisions are sufficiently irrelevant and have a robustly common identity, and heterogeneity when divisions are significant and ethnic groups don't get along. You are getting an accurate message that proves the advantages of a homogeneous country.
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