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Now I am become a Helpful, Honest and Harmless Assistant, the destroyer of jobs
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User ID: 355
4bpp
Now I am become a Helpful, Honest and Harmless Assistant, the destroyer of jobs
16hr ago
· Edited 16hr ago
Well to start with, I disagree that my "caricatures" are any such thing. I personally know a great many young women who really have learned everything they know about the conflict from extremely selectively composed Instagram infographics, including many now known to contain false information. This was obviously true during the BLM craze of 2020, so I don't know why you're acting so shocked that it's true now.
...and I don't think I was disputing that. I just think it's uncharitable in the simple sense that it is luring the reader into dismissing the position as flimsy or based on incorrect information, when it is neither (not flimsy in the sense that it would be easy to flip, nor based on incorrect information in the but-for causal sense of based on), using the hypothetical example of making a similar sort of assertion about the pro-Israel side. The majority of them can probably be accounted for by one of "Jewish with unapologetic ingroup preference", "actually hates brown people" and "have learned everything they know about the conflict from crazy posts on FB/Twitter", and I think for my lived-experience intersection of "American" and "pro-Israel" this is actually basically exhaustive (I can't comment on the Irish, because the last time I knowingly talked to an Irishman in the flesh was over a decade ago during undergrad); but I don't think that taxonomy would be appropriate either, because the crazy post people implicitly anchor their worldview in community leaders who do have a more interesting position and likewise would not be swayed from their position if you forced them to read some proper objective reporting.
Likewise, when a person who explicitly supports Hamas, thinks the October 7th attack was a good thing, explicitly states that they no longer feel any sympathy for the victims of the Holocaust etc. – I think it's reasonable to conclude that such a person fundamentally supports Hamas's stated mission of exterminating all Jews,
I disagree about Hamas/Oct 7th. The "no longer feel any sympathy" thing is a bit more complicated, though I have to say I have not heard that in the wild from leftists (even those who fall into the former two categories) at all. If you do see it that way, are you willing to bite the bullet and say that the Russian depiction of Ukraine and supportive Westerners as russophobic and genocidal is likewise accurate, given the abundance of similar rhetoric about every Ukrainian hit on Russia? (If yes, well, props for consistency, although I still disagree; if no, I will argue that you seem to be treating Jews as a special category where ill-wishes upon some members and emotive expressions of hostility are treated as uniquely more serious than for any other)
(And, seriously – you're getting so defensive about how I characterised the pro-Palestinian movement. "How dare you say we want to kill all Jews – we just want to forcibly ethnically cleanse them from the nation-state they've lived in for the better part of a century!" Is that seriously the moderate option? Is this what a "reasonable" pro-Palestinian person looks like?)
I don't recall ever claiming that it is "moderate" or "reasonable"; I was defending it only against your implicit charges of being non-serious (or, to be precise, either non-serious or significantly more immoderate/unreasonable than this still), as I explained above. I believe that on this forum, at least, we ought to be more careful about pegging movements precisely, rather than doing the normie thing and throwing everything outside a fixed window in the "literally Hitler" (literally so, in this case!) pit.
4bpp
Now I am become a Helpful, Honest and Harmless Assistant, the destroyer of jobs
16hr ago
I'm a bit confused as to the "what is a woman" connection, but also my brain is somewhat more mushy than usual right now, and you are not making it easy with the slightly sloppy/casual grammar. I'll try to reread it when I am more lucid.
My guess is you don’t like men labeling be pro-Palestine as being anti-might makes right
(assuming men -> me) I do think "anti-might makes right" is a common motivating value among those who hold the pro-Palestine position, though by no means universally present.
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Now I am become a Helpful, Honest and Harmless Assistant, the destroyer of jobs
17hr ago
I'm confused as to what you are confused about.
Correct me if you disagree with anything in this summary: You gave two caricatures of pro-Palestinians, which seem to broadly be glossable as "naive person whose views are attributable to tragic pictures on Instagram" and "actually wants all Jews to die". I disputed that this is a charitable or reasonable taxonomy. You counter-objected that the people you encountered in real life are asserting unhinged/implausible things ("they rigged the Eurovision!!!" - is that actually so unhinged? I thought it was common sense that Eurovision results are always 100% inside baseball astroturf theatre) and that they are cheering on Hamas. I didn't address the latter (though I think it's at most consistent with "expel them from the Levant" which falls well short of "kill them all" - no evidence that they wish death, even indirectly, upon any Jew outside of the Levant), but asserted that the former is not evidence of being fairly described by either of your two caricatures.
4bpp
Now I am become a Helpful, Honest and Harmless Assistant, the destroyer of jobs
17hr ago
· Edited 17hr ago
I don't think seething hatred of Israel and its supporters as you describe it is particularly incompatible with neither being pro-uncle-Adolf nor being low-information. "Expel all non-Muslims", the one position I suggested you didn't quote, is surely a pretty uncompromising position (and not exactly peaceful or sober-minded, if you try to imagine how this would have to play out in practice). The problem I had with your Instagram dig is that it suggests Instagram was instrumental (and hence that the position would fall apart with a "better" source), but I don't believe that and your description of your "lived experience" is not really giving evidence of it either.
(Perhaps you are making the mistake of thinking the conspiracism is upstream of the hatred, rather than downstream. For most people, once they find someone repellent, attributing additional evils large and small to them is just the natural course of pro-social action.)
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Now I am become a Helpful, Honest and Harmless Assistant, the destroyer of jobs
18hr ago
Was this supposed to be in response to some other post?
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Now I am become a Helpful, Honest and Harmless Assistant, the destroyer of jobs
18hr ago
· Edited 18hr ago
The Dispensationalist view that (1) the Apocalypse of John was a coded prophecy about events in the near future and (2) the advent of events therein can be hastened by facilitating the events that are described therein was mainstream in American Protestantism since the early days of the Cold War, significantly carried support for Israel (under the idea that the events of the prophecy are set off by the reascendancy of Israel in its original location, followed by two nations called "Gog and Magog" waging a war of annihilation against it) and in particular re-peaked under the Bush administration. During the latter, the Left Behind series of books, which combined this theology with du jour political concerns of the US Right like opposition to the UN/international governance and socialism, was immensely popular, and random samplings of online protestant commentary from the era made it clear that plot points from the book (in particular, the ascendancy of a Romanian UN One World Government leader who is actually the antichrist) significantly coloured how pedestrian believers imagined the biblical apocalypse would play out in practice.
4bpp
Now I am become a Helpful, Honest and Harmless Assistant, the destroyer of jobs
18hr ago
On the balance this is a good post, but I am rather disappointed that you failed to represent the "pro-Palestinian" position charitably in the end. For example, is the categorisation you offer in
you're almost equally likely to encounter a well-meaning young person who's simply upset by gory war footage in her Instagram feed, and a nutcase who thinks that Hamas are nobly trying to finish the job dear old Adolf started
really the best you can imagine? Do you not find it conceivable that someone could have gotten an accurate picture of the toll of the war in Gaza from a multitude of reasonably objective sources, and then from that drawn the conclusion (perhaps informed by other values they hold, however much you may disagree with those) that they ought to oppose the Israeli position with all that entails? I don't know what percentage of protesters nowadays get all their news from Instagram, but this is as immaterial as the question what percentage of Israel supporters get all their news from grandmas reposting AI slop on Facebook groups. In either case, their conclusions would most likely not change if you were to put them on a forced diet of Pulitzer-class fact-checked highbrow journalism instead.
I imagine some protesters, with perfect information about what transpired until now, would be happy with an outcome that involves every non-Muslim being expelled from the Levant. Others might not be happy with this, but have the delusion, as progressives are wont to do, that with sufficient reparations and contrition the Muslims will actually flip to running a pluralistic rainbow-coloured paradise in no time (delusional, perhaps, but not definitionally misinformed; information usually is not taken to include inductive reasoning). Yet others may just believe that the Israelis, using their considerable advantage in brains and brawns and wealth, can surely grit their teeth and figure out a way to make everyone there coexist more equitably, if the US just forces them at gunpoint to abandon their preferred strategy of whatever they are doing now (this, to me, seems plausible). Neither of these exactly implies support for "finishing the job dear old Adolf started", and each of them is a considerably more interesting category to engage with than the putative feel-good Instagram pollyannas you choose as the other representative.
To begin with, I don't know if you really want to be playing the "look at the sort of dumb people that exist on the other side" game, considering how much your side depends on the support of people who principally want Israel to exist so it can troll everyone and trigger a sequence of predetermined events that involves Jesus beaming them up into heaven before the UN institutes a one-world government under a Romanian dictator.
4bpp
Now I am become a Helpful, Honest and Harmless Assistant, the destroyer of jobs
1d ago
Yeah, I think I have nothing much to say apart from +1ing @SubstantialFrivolity's comment. If you have a group consensus to make the policy essentially "no under-21s allowed", then it seems to be your job as the leader to own up to it and tell her. I should also say, though, that it seems possible to me that the consensus may not be as strong as you make it out to be, because you may have created social pressure to agree ("Are there any creeps in our midst who think it's not weird for us to hang out with this 18 year old child? No? Good").
Perhaps, if you need to justify it to yourself, you could think of it as a useful life lesson - a somewhat autistic girl I am friends with, though much older, does sometimes need to be persuaded (over her own stubborn objections) that 50 year old guys showering her with gifts and inviting her to go on vacation on them within hours of first meeting are not in fact just being unusually kind. Frame it as a lecture about social expectations in your circles and how all men are wolves; if you really want to drive it home, sacrifice some of your own and your group's good reputation and tell her that the boys can't control themselves around her and you don't like what it does to the group dynamic.
4bpp
Now I am become a Helpful, Honest and Harmless Assistant, the destroyer of jobs
1d ago
I don't think I have much to add to the "you are being weird for making it an age thing" near-consensus emerging in the responses, so perhaps instead a question to throw back at you: do you have a script in mind for solving the same problem ("most of the group wants this person out but we can't find a good socially acceptable excuse to kick them") if it were not an autistic 18-year-old woman newcomer, but, say, an autistic 30-year-old guy? If you do have one, what is stopping you from applying that script here? If not, think of one, because that's a problem you will probably have to deal with earlier or later either way.
4bpp
Now I am become a Helpful, Honest and Harmless Assistant, the destroyer of jobs
1d ago
I'm with @Lewis2 in thinking that this is a bit surprising. To be clear, I like the idea of banning "look at this outrageous/hypocritical thing the outgroup did" posts; but it seemed to me that it had become one of those rules that basically never get enforced, like the "write like everyone should be included" one and the "bring evidence proportional to how inflammatory your claim is" one, because there is only so much appetite for harshin' the yums of established posters. Just skimming through the top-level posts of the last two weeks, I can see at least two that do not seem particularly different in nature, but did not draw any modhat response.
4bpp
Now I am become a Helpful, Honest and Harmless Assistant, the destroyer of jobs
2d ago
Didn't CHAZ learn the hard way how it's not easy to run even a few blocks without shooting some unarmed black kids for acting suspicious, and thence lose the mandate of heaven, before anyone thought to shut them down?
4bpp
Now I am become a Helpful, Honest and Harmless Assistant, the destroyer of jobs
4d ago
· Edited 4d ago
The lede being buried here (per the actual KiA post) is that the 60% "adjusted" score is based on something like one tenth of the votes in the "official" score. About 7000 people voted on the app, and overwhelmingly liked the film. About 800 people voted on the website, of whom ~56% liked it. That really doesn't sound like "the people's true opinion is being suppressed", but just like a "a small contingent of people cared to give the movie a rating even though they didn't have the app/watch it in a way the app registers; many of that select set didn't like it". You could argue for the greater validity of the combined score, which amounts to 92% or so; but considering the 56% sample the most valid one is just wishful thinking that none of the right-wing set would stand for if the political valence were flipped (small subset of special users that might not even have consumed it likes a thing that's considered right-wing much less).
I wanted to believe in manipulation as much as anyone, but this is weak. It really looks like Nolan has cracked the code of making the modern audience turn out for woke remakes, and team anti-woke is huffing copium.
4bpp
Now I am become a Helpful, Honest and Harmless Assistant, the destroyer of jobs
4d ago
There are so many wrong things here that I don't even know where to start.
cold, dark
The climate is milder than much of the north of the US, but Boston and the PNW are not exactly unpopular.
high-tax
Lower tax than most other places in Western Europe, surprisingly.
welfare
...also comparing unfavourably to much of the rest of Europe. The medical system is every bit as much of a wreck as the British NHS, and unemployment insurance is anemic and opt-in.
Swedish women
Consensus among foreigners (spent several years working there) was that Swedish women are very mediocre, and it's actually the men who tend to be much more attractive than those elsewhere. That meshes well with the preexisting native culture warring about Swedish men taking Thai wives.
food delivery, meat processing and Uber, prime targets for automation
This seems to be based on the human intellectual arrogance based view that got thoroughly demolished in the last few years. The best estimate to make now is that research/writing/office work/management/anything white-collar are the prime targets for automation, and food delivery, meat processing and Uber are going to be the last human holdouts because meat has a competitive advantage at navigating the mess that is the 3D world. We got AI solving big open problems in maths before we got self-driving cars that can cope with a Swedish city (as opposed to a handful of American easy-mode desert town street grids).
4bpp
Now I am become a Helpful, Honest and Harmless Assistant, the destroyer of jobs
4d ago
But right now, as the poster you were responding to rightly pointed out, the results are bad. You can hardly call it a "medium" either, any more than Uber Eats is a medium for your culinary expression and creativity.
4bpp
Now I am become a Helpful, Honest and Harmless Assistant, the destroyer of jobs
4d ago
So you're willing to defend even telltale AI slop as long as the political motivations are directionally correct? That actually seems like much more of a new low (of tribalist decay) even by the standards of American right-wingers. We had people push the "right=beauty, left=politically aligned ugliness" angle in the context of anime fanart only a few top-level posts ago, which would come to seem rather hollow if your attitude takes root.
4bpp
Now I am become a Helpful, Honest and Harmless Assistant, the destroyer of jobs
5d ago
However none of them decided that it was actually easier to hack the company instead.
"Stronger model with fewer guardrails considers more options" doesn't seem surprising.
Ironically this is what I expect from AI Doomers/Boosters. That and a love of Science Fiction and a poor understanding of reality.
Well, the problem is that the doomers/boosters have a great track record so far, while the skeptics have been fighting a rearguard action since before "stochastic parrots". We are now very deep down the list of things the Gary Marcus set has been assuring us will never happen just with the models that are accessible to the public, and yet their confidence that the next capability that is just beyond what everyone can verify with their own lying eyes (even when, as in this case, it's a straightforward combination of capabilities that are already being exhibited for everyone to see) will surely prove to be the impossible sci-fi hype scam pushed by techbro marketeers appears to be completely unaffected.
You speak of "understanding of reality", but can you spell out what exactly it is about your understanding of reality that says the official sequence of events here is impossible? Just saying "AI models don't do this" is too specific to be a feature of an "understanding of reality".
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Now I am become a Helpful, Honest and Harmless Assistant, the destroyer of jobs
5d ago
That's not saying much, considering the public-facing version is known to have been made to not think about hacking anything in the bluntest possible way (hence HF couldn't even use it to analyse the attack). As for taking any steps I didn't explicitly ask for towards a goal I requested, even the copy of Gemma E4B I tried out the other day did that approximately all the time, so I'm finding it hard to believe you could maintain a mental model of these models where they would not do that if the restriction is lifted, unless you resolutely reason backwards from your desired conclusion.
4bpp
Now I am become a Helpful, Honest and Harmless Assistant, the destroyer of jobs
5d ago
It's my position, it's pretty common among the politically engaged in my immediate environment, and I'm neither Jewish nor particularly interested in how Israel conducts itself internally as long as I don't have to be the one pushing the fat man off the bridge (there are plenty of other places in the world where people are routinely barbaric to each other and I'm equally comfortable leaving those to their own devices).
I do think your entire post registers as a less-than healthy degree of straight up projection, because you are painting this strangely elaborate and unhinged picture of your opposition as being obsessed with the minutiae of Israel's fate and situation when in reality it is clear that it is clear that nobody cares more than you do. A stalker may take the long list of incidents that you compiled to submit to police as evidence that you really do love them back, but in reality you will most likely be overjoyed to not have to spend a sliver of attention on them again once the restraining order goes through; likewise, here in the broadly anti crowd we have been forced to pay attention after decades of money extraction, conflict spillover and unsolicited interference with civic and political life, but outside of a few obsessives I really think that most people (here in Europe! I gather the US has the whole Protestant millenarian thing going on, so sometimes the stalkee really does love the stalker back?) would be quite happy to forget that the place even exists.
4bpp
Now I am become a Helpful, Honest and Harmless Assistant, the destroyer of jobs
5d ago
Have you tried any LLM recently? Even puny 8GB models that can run on my dated gaming laptop now break down arbitrary computer-related tasks into reasonable steps and follow through on them, and the model involved here is one whose parameter counts exceed that by factors of over a hundred.
4bpp
Now I am become a Helpful, Honest and Harmless Assistant, the destroyer of jobs
5d ago
· Edited 5d ago
Mind the usual motte-and-bailey about Israel though, with the motte being "Israelis have as much right to fight for their existence as everyone else, the alternative would be worse in every respect" and the bailey being "we have to provide Israel with unconditional material and political support". If the anti-Israel position were actually as extreme as it is being strawmanned, it would not stop at cutting support to Israel and maybe threatening to arrest Bibi if he comes to a Western country again; instead it would demand that the US and Europe redirect all those piles of money, intel and ordnance to Hamas, which is so far out of the Overton window that it doesn't even work as satire.
4bpp
Now I am become a Helpful, Honest and Harmless Assistant, the destroyer of jobs
6d ago
I'm familiar enough with the general idea of Genji, and I don't buy the claim of lineage here. If you want to go for straight up similarity, you will find that Goblin Slayer and Maoyuu are closer to the Canterbury Tales than to it; after all, the fantasy stories are neither trying to be a roman à clef nor are they encoding a setting in which social etiquette is implied to demand that the characters relate to each other in a formally prescribed way (unless you want to go as far as making the thesis that every particularly tropey Japanese story is just reflecting a Confucian ritualistic view of the world, which I guess would be a hit as a Japanese Studies undergrad course-paper).
Of course, if you write a story in Japanese where the characters are referred to as Minister of the Left and Consort soandso and what-not, you will get an old-timey feeling, because the roles are stock old-timey roles. You can also write a story in which all characters are only referred to by monikers like section chief and sub-chief and senpai; this will not give you a "long, long ago" feel, but a Dilbertian cubicle life feel. If you write a story in which the characters are Hero and Monk and Guild Receptionist, it will evoke the setting in which those are the roles, which is every piece of post-1989 Japanese fantasy schlock.
4bpp
Now I am become a Helpful, Honest and Harmless Assistant, the destroyer of jobs
6d ago
On the other hand, the early 2010s, when I just entered grad school, seemed to be the exact watershed moment in the US where some part of anime culture went irrevocably mainstream. I remember being taken aback at the undergraduates (including a large well-adjusted Greek Life chad/stacy contingent) constantly spamming JoJo memes in office hours and homework, trying to square it with the previous generation of JoJo memes that were the province of fat 2ch otaku who are paranoid about Korean conspiracies to steal their pure Yamato seed and their fat Western VHS sub otaku admirers.
4bpp
Now I am become a Helpful, Honest and Harmless Assistant, the destroyer of jobs
6d ago
Evangelion is older than SE Lain by several years. I would not recommend Goblin Slayer to anyone not immersed in genre conventions; even ignoring the edgy premise, the whole thing is just deliberately made of a specific set of tropes (the Japanese riff on DnD high fantasy, codified perhaps by Record of RhodosLodoss War back in 198X and then iteratively reinforced over the decades) to the point the characters don't even have names but are only known by the archetypes they represent.
There are decent respectable normie-compatible anime series coming out with fair regularity even now. Sousou no Frieren should resonate with everyone in the melancholic set that was watching YKK back when I was an undergraduate. Spy x Family is probably the best pro-natalist comedy fluff since Yotsuba&.
4bpp
Now I am become a Helpful, Honest and Harmless Assistant, the destroyer of jobs
6d ago
I thought that making noise in movie theatres is an American thing. I noticed it with a healthy amount of dismay the one time I watched a movie in a US cinema (the first Star Wars sequel, at the SO's urging; some very central location in Boston next to a park, I could probably pinpoint the exact cinema if necessary), and was told that this is normal.
Realising I missed a nuance on first readthrough, you seem to assume that the 30-year-old guy script has to involve concrete things that you can confront them over, which they could fix to get accepted into the group. The more interesting question there, though, is what you would do with a 30-year-old guy where there is no such thing. I've seen plenty of instances where some guy is just unlikeable, through no fault of their own; nobody can do anything about it, but having to be around him actively causes the other members negative utility, to the point that if they are not forced to stay they would sooner just leave the group. How would you deal with that situation?
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