self_made_human
amaratvaṃ prāpnuhi, athavā yatamāno mṛtyum āpnuhi
I'm a transhumanist doctor. In a better world, I wouldn't need to add that as a qualifier to plain old "doctor". It would be taken as granted for someone in the profession of saving lives.
At any rate, I intend to live forever or die trying. See you at Heat Death!
Friends:
A friend to everyone is a friend to no one.
User ID: 454
self_made_human
amaratvaṃ prāpnuhi, athavā yatamāno mṛtyum āpnuhi
2hr ago
I see enough lip filler in the UK to fill a swimming pool. God, don't get me started on the jaundice-tier bronzing and fake tans.
self_made_human
amaratvaṃ prāpnuhi, athavā yatamāno mṛtyum āpnuhi
2hr ago
The point is that tattoos are, in fact, normalized and a far less reliable sign of dysfunction than they once were. The most basic bitch people get them, albeit if you see full sleeves and facial tattoos, I'd be cautious. The association with impulsivity and poor decision making, while very much real, also doesn't matter if you are able to apply basic judgement to behavior and context. I'd date and marry women with tattoos, at least tasteful ones.
Wait, I thought that was a plastic plant. Oh dear.
I also noticed that the dog went missing from the last time I took over, please tell me she's boarded somewhere pleasant and not roaming the streets looking for more roadkill lasagna.
And I put up those sticky notes for nothing, let alone the permanent marker on our skin. Just don't break anything, and the dog wasn't too sick. With the rate we're replacing houseplants, we've got to work on cutting down veterinary expenses.
self_made_human
amaratvaṃ prāpnuhi, athavā yatamāno mṛtyum āpnuhi
3hr ago
That is a recent development. When I first learned about cryonics, I didn't expect AGI to be nearly as imminent or realistic as a possibility.
It's the bigger mammals that are the real headache. If we pull it off with monkeys, I'll care a great deal. If they do it for apes, then I'm an ape too and I'm going to sign up immediately unless it's ridiculously expensive. I earn enough these days that I could, in theory, afford Nectome. One small thing to be grateful for.
self_made_human
amaratvaṃ prāpnuhi, athavā yatamāno mṛtyum āpnuhi
3hr ago
Other than what @wemptronics said, AGI/ASI is looking rather likely, especially if you're already dead and frozen and thus not in a hurry. If they can't help us solve the problem, it's probably not solvable.
self_made_human
amaratvaṃ prāpnuhi, athavā yatamāno mṛtyum āpnuhi
3hr ago
Help mom, LessWrong is leaking and not just because of AI. No, don't worry, I love to see it. I love The Motte, but I wish it drifted more towards more central Rationalist pastures.
Anyway. I've been following this, and I'm somewhere between attentive and cautiously optimistic. The founders know their stuff, and have been quite upfront of what exactly they can offer and what it requires. The effective necessity of MAID doesn't bother me at all. If you die traumatically, the odds that standard approaches can preserve you enough to reconstruct with high fidelity is... low.
A decade ago, I would have told you I'd sign up for cryonics the first opportunity I got. But things have changed. AGI will either substantially change the trajectory of technological development in an upward direction, or kill us in a manner that precludes cryonics mattering. I assign rather little probability mass to things in between. It's not worth discussing rn, even if Things Continue As Usual is not impossible.
But now? If AGI doesn't show up within 10 years, I'll consider it again. Not in 20? I'll be signing up immediately. Right now, I have better things to do with my money, and that includes hedging for disruption in the near future. That includes most of my loved ones, even if my grandpa would never consent and it's not practical to do it in India. I regret this immensely.
With so many sci-fi fantasies filling up the horizon, why not kill yourself and wait awhile? What did you think transhumanism meant, anyway? vibes? papers? essays?
I mean, I admire the attitude, but I do think that immortality doesn't necessarily involve killing ourselves to attain. "Mere" biological mortality is a possibility. I say this, while being willing to destructively scan my brain and upload my mind into a computer the moment it's viable, validated and safe. Whatever, it's my sense of identity and willingness to subscribe to substrate-independent theories of consciousness. I would prefer non-destructive scans if they were an option, and might even wait if I didn't expect to die before it was a reality.
self_made_human
amaratvaṃ prāpnuhi, athavā yatamāno mṛtyum āpnuhi
3hr ago
You're telling me I could have been getting paid this whole time? BRB, I need to renegotiate for more Drama Coins. Or start a union.
self_made_human
amaratvaṃ prāpnuhi, athavā yatamāno mṛtyum āpnuhi
3hr ago
But I'll just push that one point: how many people ended up as 'mentally ill homeless' because there wasn't an intervention earlier on in their life to keep them on a more productive track?
I'd have to look that up instead of guessing, but I expect it's substantial. That's assuming that "interventions" include the forceful or consensual use of psychiatric intervention. The outcomes for schizophrenia and bipolar after treatment, while not as great as I'd like, significantly beats going untreated.
By the time people have exhausted their social safety net and have ended up on the streets, it's often too late to restore them to functionality. At that point? It's an asylum or bust. Perhaps @Throwaway05 might have a better understanding the conditions in the US, I'm being general here.
Although its most likely that there was some pre-existing mental condition that explains both that outcome and why they tried sex work in the first place.
If sex work is a legitimately bad idea for the majority of people (which I think is true), then the people who still opt for it will tend towards being stupid, impulsive or mentally ill. But I do not think that is a permanent, irrevocable fact that is impervious to change in attitudes. A world where most women and men think OF is fine will have more normal people working in it.
Think of how tattoos used to be a strong sign of criminality, and how you can see grandpas and yuppies flaunting them in public. Circumstances and attitudes change.
I have seen some cases of women who go into that line of work and it seemingly crushes their spirits, collapses their social networks, and ultimately puts them in an emotional condition that wrecks their ability to maintain a romantic connection. I think this impact is at least on the order of that of getting addicted to a hard drug, although it is probably easier to recover if you have support.
I'm not saying they can't be compared, I think you can usefully compare apples and oranges (it's such a dumb metaphor). But this is an empirical question, and one I'm not ready to research at 2 am. If you have evidence to the contrary, do share and I promise to take a look later!
(Hard drugs also encompass a wide range of drugs, some of them MUCH worse for you)
(Lets be fair, I also DESPISE Multi-level marketing schemes and would love to nuke those from orbit, and would take measures to keep my kids from falling into that trap too, although I'd like to think my kids would know the math well enough to see why those won't work.) OF has many of the same aspects as MLMs when you look at how it works in practice, but you're burning up more than just your time and money if you try to take it seriously.
If a grown child of mine is dumb enough to fall for an MLM, then I'd disown them on principle. Seriously, I might give them myopia, depressive tendencies or ADHD, but I refuse to take responsibility for stupidity. Blame their mom instead.
Yep, good to point out where we are different in our beliefs so the others don't catch on LOL.
You know we can't sell it if you keep breaking character right? I knew that inducing DID with heroic doses of ketamine wasn't the best idea, but I didn't think you'd be quite so fractious. Fine, once I'm asleep you can take over our advocacy, just remember to water the succulent and throw out the trash. If you keep being lazy, I will take the antipsychotics like I threatened.
self_made_human
amaratvaṃ prāpnuhi, athavā yatamāno mṛtyum āpnuhi
3hr ago
One that the may not be obvious to you, or to even him yet, is that coming out is a process, and one that never ends, and for a wide variety of people, it's going to be more painful to be 'honest' everywhere than just being themselves. Coming out to you is a step, coming out to your mom if he does is another step. Even if you broadcast it from a megaphone while doing the full Folsome Street Fair on main street, there will still be people the next day you have to decide whether you need or want to come out to.
My brother is fast asleep, so I can't quite ask him right now, but I think that even just having close family and friends know the truth would be enough to provide him contentment. He's not the kind of person to agonize over what random acquaintances or distant relatives think, and neither am I.
Sure, there might be times when he struggles to decide whether his sexuality needs disclosure, but I don't think it'll bother him too much.
I'll second other people saying that, especially if they were meant in good spirits, I'd rather people make jokes rather than walk on eggshells. It is kinda funny! It is something that's not really ever going to make 'sense' at a deep level to you! Just throw some self-deprecatory signs hitting your team too, accept a few jokes going your way, and it's how family should treat each other.
Thank you. After several people reassured me that they personally didn't mind, I'm over my (minor) worries. It made a big difference that my own brother straight up acknowledged that he didn't mind and didn't want me to change. I wish that had been enough to make me entirely sanguine, it almost was, and if he's happy why should I care what anyone else says?
That's... a difficult situation, and if it helps, give him my sympathies as someone who's had to make decisions around (lighter) variants of the same problems. A lot of the answers are going to depend both on what he's willing to do, what risk (and what kinds of risks!) he's willing to accept, and how much his biology is going to fight with him. I'll avoid repeating the obvious 'try to have it all' stuff or diving into useless esoteric options (eg: just find a trans guy who wants to get knocked up who cares whether that'd even work for him), but a few unintuitive options:
Agreed. He's a sensible young man, and has his own strengths. I respect his ability to figure out his own goals and needs, while being committed to supporting him all the way through.
Anyway, this conversation made me emotional, so I went and woke him up just to say I love him. You really can't say that often enough, in my experience, and regret never feels good.
There are women who you don't have to trick. For a fujoshi or a woman with a very low sex drive, a closed-relationship-focused gay guy can be an even more-desirable-than-normal catch. Sometimes that's a lavender marriage (yes, there are lesbian fujoshi), but sometimes it's just what works for people. Doesn't even have to be a lie; you can honestly say that you married for the sake of kids, but you're great friends: then people who need to know can know and those who don't can decide what they want to believe. This has some good options on having biological children, if some that might make for a few uncomfortable discussions and maybe a bit of a boner-killer moment. There's levels of gay where the flesh might be unwilling but there's no mental objection (or even fingers that might be willing to put in the hard work when required), and on the other side, my brother turned down a threesome he really wanted because the third's girlfriend wanted in the room fully clothed. If your brother's toward the latter end, this probably won't work well even if the woman in questions swears she's lesbian or asexual. On the upside, if you don't particularly care about a woman's appearance, you get to select for personality, and there's a lot of diamonds in the rough.
Good thing he knows literal fujoshis in his circle of acquaintances, and probably friends. You could well be right that someone might consider this setup their dream. And worst case, my family are gynecologists and he might become one. We can pull out the ol' family turkey-baster as and when needed. Intra-uterine insemination is easy enough, any Tom, Dick and Harry can pull it off.
He's young. There's time to explore plenty of options, and I'm grateful for that. I'd be much sadder if, say, he'd only spoken up a decade later. Or whispered it to me on my death bed.
I do not quite feel ready to explore the true limits of his attraction to women, but I know it's very limited. Who knows, maybe from the rear any ass is grass and he's willing to mow the lawn. A sufficiently high dose of viagra could make someone screw a corpse, or at least hard enough to make it a technical possibility.
(Out of curiosity, do lesbian fujoshi consume yaoi, or just yuri?)
if you don't particularly care about a woman's appearance, you get to select for personality, and there's a lot of diamonds in the rough.
Call me shallow, but ain't setting my brother up with any uggo, be they man or woman. He deserves better haha. Although I must admit that I have learned the hard way that an unpleasant personality can easily overpower the allure of a pretty face.
I kinda went down a rabbit hole looking up what you meant by "unicorn". It seems I am not as terminally online or up to date with gay culture as I imagined. Huh. I guess I see the appeal?
and harder than you'd expect. Having a partner that only exists through a VOIP call 300+ days a year sucks when you need a human touch, don't get me wrong, and I know more than one LDR that got really rough when the two long-time lovebirds found that they were only sexually compatible at a keyboard. You have a lot more space to select from, though, and a lot more people trying this stuff care about longer-term relationships to begin with. It's also easier to stay closeted (at least in meatspace), and a lot more compatible with a number of home obligations. On the gripping hand, though, this can turn into a massive psychological pressure such it feels like immigration to the LDR's homeland or emigration of the LDR Will Fix Everything, and that's both not true and can lead to bad decision-making with regret.
I don't want to go into too much detail, but even during their intern year, his BF did some regrettable things because of "loneliness", and that's just a month or two of not seeing each other.
I don't think I can make an LDR work, from some experience, but my brother hasn't really tried. Who knows, maybe he'll change his mind. I just don't think a bi, severely conflicted man is the right choice, even if I like him myself.
I see you also mean other LDRs, and sure, I guess if he does meet someone as appealing, I think he might give it a good shout.
Be a good sounding board. Especially if he doesn't have many meatspace gay friends separate from his boyfriend, it's very easy for a guy to go quite literally nuts as they stew over hard decisions without any external grounding (or falling down the /r/relationships or LLM rabbit hole for said external grounding, which will quite happily work toward driving you even more nuts). It's a really bad situation to be in, and I'm not exaggerating or hyperbolizing when I talk about this like going crazy. Having someone you can be out to, even if they can't empathize fully with a specific problem, as long as they're going to be honest and serious and open-minded about a choice, helps a ton at not getting unmoored or badly fixated.
Hey, he's my brother. He's going to Claude and not ChatGPT if he absolutely must use an LLM for life advice. Jokes aside, I do intend to be there for him, and after @reo 's nudging, I intend to be proactive about it. I found out many things last night, and not just that he's gay. He loves me to a degree that makes my heart ache, and I didn't quite know it. If he can't count on me, what does being my little brother even mean?
And that's going to be uncomfortable at times! I'm bi, and I still absolutely know more of my brother's preferences than I ever wanted to know. The watersports joke is not the worst of all possible worlds. It's still better than having family who can't tell if they're obsessing over someone.
I absolutely don't want to watch. Not even think about it the details really, but to be fair that's more to do with me being straight than a prude or homophobe. I'm the kind of guy who skips ahead when a porno decides to zoom in on the guy's face or his cock. Who decided that's a good idea??
Anyway. I wanted to say that I'm very grateful. You're tied with Reo for people who, by themselves, made this cry for help worth it. I'll pass it all along, thank you so much.
self_made_human
amaratvaṃ prāpnuhi, athavā yatamāno mṛtyum āpnuhi
4hr ago
Quite possibly, but I pride myself on being an internally coherent and consistent person, and I definitely can't empathize with such... hypocrisy? Incoherence? I don't know.
Sure, I can understand it in an intellectual manner, but it's like intentionally seeking out fentanyl without external pressure and then shooting your dealer for selling to you. Sure, it's a bad idea, but this hypothetical (and hopefully fictional) person is being a bit silly. The dealer, at least here, didn't force them to buy it. If you hate pornstars, not jerking off is an option, and if that doesn't work, we can give your SSRIs for hypersexuality.
self_made_human
amaratvaṃ prāpnuhi, athavā yatamāno mṛtyum āpnuhi
4hr ago
I'm gathering that you're ultimately fine with full on Social and Natural Darwinism for deciding punishments and outcomes for risky behavior... but there's a certain amount of nuance when it comes to your own progeny.
Full on? Definitely not. I'd rather we make everyone smarter and saner instead, and I think that is a real option. I see several Fix Everything switches if I look around. Nuclear power, an end to NIMBYism, institutionalization of the mentally ill homeless (I have a US bias, some places don't have Fix Everything switches).
But time and money and effort are not in nigh-infinite abundance today. I prescribe policy that works the best for the world as it is, at least as I see it, not some kind of AGI-having post scarcity utopia. There are a lot of people who make everyone strictly worse off for reasons that can't be easily fixed or excused by circumstances completely out of their control. I think we can be harsher on them, for the sake of the super-majority. If you shoplift a dozen times and end up in and out of custody for more serious crimes, I want the book thrown at you. If you murder and rob over and over again, then you might age out of it, but prison is expensive (and has scope to be much cheaper even in the US) and sometimes the death penalty just makes sense (it should be cheaper too).
I am not advocating for some kind of free for all or maximal libertarianism/anarcho-capitalism, at least not today.
Well let me drill down on that a bit. If you believed that her doing sex work was more likely than not (i.e. 51%) to make it so that she'd be unable to marry a reliable, respectable, supportive husband and thus grievously impact her financial future, her odds of being a mother, her overall mental health, are you still going to stand on the 'autonomy' position, even if she's getting some malicious actor whispering in her ear (but, importantly NOT coercing her)? Yes, I would hope she'd listen to her loving father over the Casanova trying to pimp her out, but if she slips up this one
If it was actually that bad? Yup. But at least in reality, I don't think it's remotely as bad. And if she figures out it's a bad idea and wants to pivot away, it is far from impossible to salvage a good life.
Like I said, if OF caused giga-AIDS, we should ban it. But not even actual AIDS kills >51% of people, let alone merely things that could cause AIDS.
Wouldn't you be willing to take some serious measures to avert that?
Why wouldn't I? I hope it's clear that I'm grading according to perceived risk and damage. If my daughter was going to inject herself with a needle filled with literal HIV solution, I'd stop her with force. If it was a needle dropped by a junkie or if she was doing fent, I'd do so too. But come on, are you saying starting an OF is remotely as dangerous? If not, I think my decision to remain within legal bounds is both pragmatically valid and in accordance with my values.
I mean, depends a bit on what "they don't like" actually means. "This woman is riddled with STDs and has a history of violent outbursts" might justify trying to stop you. But yes, that's a fair distinction.
Given that I've just used HIV for my argument so far, sure, I think I'd understand if they did stop me. I certainly wouldn't cut contact or press charges.
Incredibly enjoying this discussion since its one of the few times I'm seeing major daylight between our respective positions, despite coming from almost identical premises, it seems.
I'm off to bed in a bit, but a pleasure nonetheless. I don't think your views are unreasonable, even if we do have our differences.
self_made_human
amaratvaṃ prāpnuhi, athavā yatamāno mṛtyum āpnuhi
4hr ago
You know, while COVID was a bad time in India, the sheer poverty of the country saved us from the ridiculously prolonged lockdowns. Sure, we had them for maybe 2 or 3 months in early 2020, and then another one in late 2020 or early 2021 for the delta wave (much worse than the first one). But it quickly became apparent that society and the government itself would collapse if the majority of people weren't allowed to work. Also, it turned out that the revenue from liquor taxes was rather load bearing for the budget, and awkward adjustments were made quite quickly. The average person stopped regularly masking by early 2021, though I still had to wear one (and wanted to) till the middle of the year.
It's unfortunate that I was deemed an essential worker and had to suffer through it all, including work in overloaded Covid ICUs. We literally ran out of oxygen. The crematoria really did melt from overuse. N95s? I got one every month and had to wash it well past the point of usefulness. Caught the damn bug 4 times at the very least, and that's only considering the times I bothered to get tested. I could have used a break.
Anyway, I think it quickly became clear by the middle of 2020, well past reasonable doubt, that blanket lockdowns made little sense, and that only the elderly and sick needed special attention. What a farce.
self_made_human
amaratvaṃ prāpnuhi, athavā yatamāno mṛtyum āpnuhi
5hr ago
If there's an online grooming gang involved (and is it even grooming when we're talking about a legal adult?), then I would call the cops and ask them to take care of it, presuming that the activity was illegal.
I think physical restraint is, usually, a drastic escalation and violation of autonomy. My friends and family can pull me out of the way of a truck, but I'd yell at them if they stopped me from going out on a date with someone they don't like.
If my daughter told me she was going to attempt suicide, or do fentanyl, then I think I would do quite a few things that are clearly illegal, and damn the consequences. Starting an OF or doing sex work is not ideal, but not nearly as bad.
I have done plenty of things that my parents didn't approve of at that age. Some of those things went well for me, others... the opposite. A part of becoming an adult is realizing that the typical parent (mine and hopefully yours) is actually quite wise and knows what's good for you, even if they aren't omniscient.
I have my own issues with using age as the (primary) standard for capacity. I know 15 year old I'd trust to run a business, and 35 year olds who shouldn't operate a lemonade stand. I am too tired to go into exhaustive detail regarding the specifics of my views, but you can imagine something like a citizenship/adulthood/competence exam that anyone is allowed to try at any age. Nothing overly onerous, but enough to eliminate the idiots. You can pass it at 16 and legally emancipate yourself, or you might not make it till you're dying of old age if you're legitimately stupid. Then perhaps more demanding and specific tests for things that are quite clearly bad for you. Think Yudkowsky's Shop That Sells Banned Products.
You want to get surgery done by someone who isn't a licensed professional? Sure, pass this test of literacy and demonstrate an understanding of the principles of the Scientific Method and why med school is a good idea (you don't have to agree, you just have to understand), sign a few waivers, wait a week, and you're good to go. That includes waiving liability or the ability to seek compensation from the State.
If you break your spine while driving drunk, or lose your dick while fucking a blender, then I don't see why society should have to foot the bill. Maybe drug addicts who are violent, criminally inclined and disruptive and entirely unwilling to accept help shouldn't be eligible for housing or most welfare. If they're doing coke on weekends and making a million dollars a year as a quant, why the hell should I care?
self_made_human
amaratvaṃ prāpnuhi, athavā yatamāno mṛtyum āpnuhi
5hr ago
It is both easier and harder to move abroad as a doctor. There's plenty of demand for those capable of making the cut, but also an enormous amount of red tape and restriction on the ability to practice. An American doctor can't (AFAIK) just walk in to India and pick up a scalpel, let alone the other way round.
Someone with a good job in design or marketing, or an engineer/programmer, might have a harder time leaving India but would then enjoy far more geographic and personal flexibility. God knows I wish I could work from home or remotely, but that's only really an option for senior psychiatrist with a flourishing private practice. Can't complain too much, I make decent money and have an enviable degree of job security in return, at least till AI comes knocking.
My brother is very much against the idea of marrying a straight woman, at least on false pretenses. And look, he's still young. At his age, I knew I wanted to get married and start a family one day, but it was a problem for the future. The future is, at least for me, just about next week. He has time, Indian culture and law might well liberalize further, and it has already liberalized greatly even within our lifespan.
He could get away with simply living with another man and calling them a friend, at least for many years. Eyebrows would raise eventually, but nosy neighbors or relatives aren't an insurmountable problem. Anything short of an official, legal marriage to another man is viable.
Marrying a transman? I haven't specifically asked, but I'd bet good money on him rejecting the idea. They're very rare in India, not that transwomen are common either. I don't know a single one, and haven't even heard of them through my extended network, at least while talking about India. A lesbian? Eh, maybe, if we can find one. Apparently there are networks for those seeking such arrangements. And you're correct that he wouldn't be starting regular orgies, the chick would be the front while he spends most of his time with his real male partner (and presumably she with hers). As long as she's available to drag along to family occasions or social events, it could well work.
Anyway good luck with everything
Thank you for that, as well as for your advice. I am cautiously optimistic that his story will have a happy ending, and I'll move heaven and earth to make it happen. I know he would for me.
self_made_human
amaratvaṃ prāpnuhi, athavā yatamāno mṛtyum āpnuhi
6hr ago
I don't particularly endorse the State subsidizing bad behavior, at least the kind that imposes significant negative externalities. At least not till the world becomes so ridiculously rich that even the US of A today looks like a ghetto, which I do think is a very real possibility.
At the same time, I am very leery of States attempting to ban or onerously restrict the activities of consenting, sane and intelligent people. I am okay with safeguards for those who do not meet that cut, children shouldn't be kicked out of home at the age of six and told to fend for themselves.
The problem with setting your metric as whatever produces a "better" society is that there is far from perfect consensus on what counts as better. There are idiots who looks at nuclear power and cheap energy with enormous material abundance and think nah, ban that shit. This is not a retreat into complete epistemic uncertainty or helplessness, most people do agree that a society that is richer, healthier and smarter is generally good. Yet I am concerned by the sheer number of people who disapprove of the idea of turning Mercury into a Dyson Swarm/Matrioshka Brain. It's free cheap real estate and a lot of negentropy for the taking. Or the idea that we should become biological immortal or genetically enhance our cognition and eliminate all disease.
The benefit of strongly valuing personal liberty is that it allows the free market for ideas to flourish. People and societies that make smart decisions win in the end, most of the time.
self_made_human
amaratvaṃ prāpnuhi, athavā yatamāno mṛtyum āpnuhi
6hr ago
See, neither of us disagree that there is scope for guard-rails or restrictions, we just disagree on where to put them. If we lived in a more enlightened and intelligent society, I would let my inner libertarian flag fly, and say that yes, society should allow every free sophont to own personal nuclear bombs or sell themselves into slavery.
Sadly, we live in a deeply imperfect world, with a lot of stupid people around who would not only screw themselves over (hey, it's their prerogative) but also impose substantial externalities. I don't mind second hand or indoor smoking being banned, but I do oppose a ban on cigarettes even if I don't use them. I am mostly okay with cigarettes being heavily taxed, which compensates for the externalities and has had meaningful and substantial reductions in popularity, at least in the UK.
The issue with the toddler analogy is that well, they're a toddler. I'm not sure even Von Neumann or Einstein were operating at the level of the average adult at 2 years old. Safeguards in place make sense. Adults/parents being able to override their autonomy is desirable.
But my 18 year old daughter? I would impose as much punishment as is legal, say threatening to cut her off from college funds or leave her life. But I wouldn't ask the government to make sex work illegal, that is going too far. At least some people, like Aella, do it while being far from stupid or poorly informed. Good for them, even if I don't particularly approve. I would sleep with Aella, I absolutely wouldn't marry her. But there are people willing to marry her (Bay Area autists for the most part), so it's not ruining her life. I don't want to ruin her life. I will sigh and look the other way.
self_made_human
amaratvaṃ prāpnuhi, athavā yatamāno mṛtyum āpnuhi
6hr ago
Thank you for the advice.
I genuinely don't think it's as hopeless as you think. Sure, my brother probably can't make it work with the current bi boyfriend, but that is far from his only option. It is unfortunate that he's still in love with him, and vice versa, but I've been in love with women I never intended to marry too.
I did specifically discuss emigration, look, I don't even live in India anymore, even though my opinion on the UK has soured considerably (I'm actively weighing my options once residency ends).
He is willing to make sacrifices: he is already closeted with regards to my dad and the wider public. He very badly wants our dad to accept him, which I think is quite likely if not certain. The wider public can take a hike, and even if they disapprove, the objective risks are minimal.
India is not the best place to be a gay man, but is also far from the worst. I'd say it's like America in the 70s or 80s, maybe early 90s.
If you want specific reasons for staying:
Our family owns a small hospital, currently in the red. We're trying to turn that around. My dad devoted a good chunk of his life to building and operating it. There's scope for expansion.
My brother never particularly wanted to be a doctor. Even I was not particularly devoted to the profession, though I was lucky to discover that psychiatry genuinely appealed to me. I wouldn't say he was forced into it, but he lacked focus and ended up opting in as the default outcome. He would rather be a businessman with a side hustle as a doctor than entirely devoted to medicine. I'm the opposite, the idea of running a business in India makes me feel sick. I am extremely relieved that he's consistently expressed interest in shouldering the burden.
Then there's our parents. They would accept both of us emigrating abroad permanently, but with pain. My dad still hopes that I'll come back after changing my mind. They're getting old. They're getting frail. They no longer appear as invincible as they seemed when we were children. We worry about them. Having a son close at hand reduces our concern immensely.
He's willing to go abroad, for a residency at least. And if he likes it, who knows, he might decide to stick around. I did so, but I am sorely disillusioned, and I hate my life and training, while enjoying the money and other kinds of freedom. It's a deeply personal decision, not everyone who would flourish abroad wants to go abroad. My dad could have made it big in the States if he really cared to try, but he had different priorities. Such is life.
It is also not trivial to make the move. The UK is no longer a viable option because of recent reintroduction of prioritization of local graduates. The US is famously demanding. Canada, Australia and New Zealand are his best bets.
I love my brother, but he's not very good at studying despite being smart. His ADHD is worse than mine in that regard, even if he's more functional and independent in other ways. I had an uphill struggle getting into residency in the UK, I had to study so hard I almost went blind, and definitely had a few mental breakdowns. I do intend to continue tutoring and coaching him, even if I have a lot on my plate as is. Least I can do for my little brother.
It is also genuinely not easy being a first gen immigrant. I miss my family, old friends, and my pets. He would too. It is not nearly as clearcut as the West being outright superior in all regards to life as a doctor in India, even if you're gay, and he can work around the limitations here. He is absolutely not the kind of person who has rose-tinted glasses on, he's thinking ahead and doesn't see it impossible to find happiness here. Neither do I, if I'm being honest.
self_made_human
amaratvaṃ prāpnuhi, athavā yatamāno mṛtyum āpnuhi
6hr ago
Look, I think that a society that only allows people to make good choices is tyrannical, even if it's benevolent tyranny. I am not maximally libertarian, but someone selling pictures of them riding a dildo does not rise to the level of harm where I will tolerate (if not endorse) governmental intervention.
I think you have every right to personally disapprove. I do and would disapprove too, if my daughter contemplated something like that, I'd be immensely disappointed, assuming that society and cultural mores around sex stayed much the same as it currently is today. But if it was entirely normalized? I wouldn't forbid her, even if my own upbringing made me queasy. In a similar vein, I don't think there's anything wrong with working as a janitor, but I don't want my kids to become janitors.
If we apply the standard that people who aren't maximally rational and numerate can't do certain risky things, then we would very quickly find ourselves in a situation where the average person can't drink, gamble or smoke or drive large SUVs. I don't drink (much), gamble (at all) or smoke (barring vapes, which are far less harmful) but I am also opposed to a blanket ban. If they're old enough to vote and not obviously retarded, they can do what they want with their own bodies. I don't see it as my business or that of the state.
If I could sell pictures of my body for monetary gain and without repercussion?
self_made_human_nudes_uncensored_gone_wild.jpg
If hot women lined up to fuck me for money? Brother, I'd do it for free.
I already sell my body in a very real sense, since my mind is attached to it and so are my hands. That is what working for a wage means. I don't see anything qualitatively or morally wrong about sex work in a vacuum, the problem is the lack of vacuum. The kind of woman who is willing to prostitute herself is highly likely to be immensely unsuitable for me. That's just basic priors IMO. But history has no end of examples of respected courtesans or temple priestesses who were gussied up prostitutes. And society was fine with it, at the time.
Besides, I do occasionally watch porn, and I'm not a hypocrite to the degree that I would try to ban pornstars while jerking off to them.
I hope it is clear that I am willing to tolerate, if not endorse, many things that I disagree with or disapprove of. I ask only for the same charity in return. If OF caused giga-AIDs and the imminent extinction of the human race, I'd look the other way. It's not that bad.
Likewise with sex. I honestly believe there's some subset of women who can be 'happy whores' and generally enjoy promiscuity without it dragging other aspects of their life down. A small subset.
Women tend to age out of it, in my experience. The majority of women with high body counts usually end up snagging a man at some point, and mostly seem content to be monogamous. Look at my first ex from med school, she was well known to be... promiscuous (I don't know if she ever cheated on me, but there were rumors). She slept around with a concerning number of men (by Indian standards) and had a kink for East Asian-looking dudes (Nepali, Assamese etc, India is diverse). Yet my Instagram feed was cursed by images of her recent engagement to another doctor. I chortled at how butt ugly he is, and how much weight she's gained, but hey, he's a surgical resident and seems wealthy enough. I'm most surprised by the fact that she didn't marry someone who looks like her type.
(Her mom was a gyno, and had a reputation of her own)
In general, the costs of early promiscuity in women are overrated. It's quite easy to hide or suppress body counts, unless you're on record as a prostitute or pornstar. And even then, there are men who are desperate enough to marry you, though they might be a little far from ideal.
self_made_human
amaratvaṃ prāpnuhi, athavā yatamāno mṛtyum āpnuhi
7hr ago
I am this close to nominating you for an AAQC.
self_made_human
amaratvaṃ prāpnuhi, athavā yatamāno mṛtyum āpnuhi
7hr ago
I can never particularly get worked up over OF. With the proliferation of AI image and video gen, there's already a race to the bottom and drastically reduced profits (and costs). There's also a massive skew towards the top few performers raking in most of the money, and the average creator makes a trivial sum.
Not that I'd care much either way, if a woman has an OF, I would consider that a red flag that significantly reduces or eliminates my desire for a longterm relationship, but I respect their right to do it anyway. God knows nobody is likely to pay much for pictures of my bussy, and I'm not sure how much of that is attractiveness or the sheer abundance of free options. I can say I have never, ever, in a quadrillion years been tempted to pay for the stuff, most of the time the free alternatives are fine or leaks are easily available.
self_made_human
amaratvaṃ prāpnuhi, athavā yatamāno mṛtyum āpnuhi
7hr ago
Most women? Yes. But as I've speculated down thread, my brother gets enough female attention that there are almost certainly going to be women who would still ask for marriage and hope for kids. Maybe most of them might be a tad optimistic, or less charitably, outright delusional, but there's a reason psychiatrists stay in gainful employment. (I am not nearly as handsome and live in a different country with no solid plans for return, but all else being the same, my parents still regularly have to field marriage proposals on my behalf.)
And that is restricting myself to heterosexual women, God knows that if he did express a willingness to have a lavender marriage, there would be plenty of market demand. I don't think that's a bad option, at least if every party is on board and fully informed.
Yes. It can and does happen.
Out of curiosity, I asked Claude, and here's a link to it's reply.
ChatGPT:
https://chatgpt.com/share/69c167d0-f6b0-800b-a861-551b7be7be49
TLDR: there's a lot of denial about homosexuality, and a wealthy handsome doctor from a good family is a catch so appealing that plenty of women will ignore the fact that he's gay (even if they might end up regretting that decision later). Claude is more confident than I am, but I think both of us are directionally correct.
Your intuitions aren't wrong, per se, but India is a big country, with many different kinds of Indians! For example, if my brother had been born to a few of my paternal uncles, he might not have ever come out until his immediate family had died of old age.
The more conservative parts of our family are not that conservative by Indian standards. Enough to make us worry for the sake of our parents, but not ourselves. He's not going to be shunned or attacked, but our parents might face pointed critique or thinly veiled criticism. My dad is more old-fashioned than my mom, and he might internalize it and agonize over if he raised us right or if this is somehow his fault. I stress that he's never said or done anything actually homophobic, and he would probably get around to it eventually. It would just hurt him a lot.
It helps that our extended family doesn't live with us, or next door for the most part. We aren't very close to our dad's side anyway, we'd lose little if we had to cut them off or be cut off. Unfortunately, can't say the same about how my dad would feel, such ostracism would hurt to the core. I don't think it's likely, but I think there's a non-negligible chance of it. His older siblings raised him after his dad died, and he has tried to return the favor ever since, well past what I would personally deem reasonable. Let's just say we would significantly more wealthy if he had been more selfish and hadn't put half my cousins through college and uni.
I was once in a friend group with a "non-binary" woman who compulsively engaged in such tactics to police people's behaviour, and it took a herculean effort for me to contain my disgust. I find myself so estranged from these people, it's almost as if I'm looking at a different species entirely.
Right, I did say that I'm perfectly happy to hang around with LGBT people, but I draw the line with the "queers" or "Enbies". Call me cynical, but the majority are just ornery and attention-seeking straight women in denial. This caused plenty of conflict with an ex of mine, but I don't care. If you are functionally indistinguishable from a straight person and only sleep with straight men, my charity wears thin (barring the terribly dyed hair and baggy clothes, which does not constitute a distinct sexuality).
You didn't specify if it had to be my dick, so I'll point you to Google and donate the proceeds to charity. Probably a charity for autism, that's the right call.
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